Michelle Pascoe: Welcome everyone to this week’s podcast, and here we are in 2026. I am joined once again by a dear friend, although we’ve only met over the Zoom airways on our various podcasts, both me interviewing Andy and him doing the same for me. I knew, from the start of this year, because we have a deep passion for creating the most amazing experiences, and behind that is the values that run deep within an organisation through their culture.
So let me introduce you once again to Andy Goram. He is on a mission to help people have more fulfilling work lives. After 25 years in senior marketing and brand roles, connecting the dots between marketing, HR and operations, he founded Bizjuicer Consulting, helping organisations become stickier from the inside out. Known as the Sticky Guy, Andy works with companies across different sectors, including hospitality, retail, care and manufacturing, to build cultures where great people want to stay, grow and thrive.
He’s also the host of the popular podcast Sticky From the Inside, where global experts unpack what truly drives performance, engagement, effective leadership and belonging at work. And belonging is so important, it really is, because we both love the world of our generational research in all areas of business, and that feeling of belonging is key. A regular Engage for Success radio co-host, panel moderator and facilitator, Andy brings infectious energy, empathy and practical insight to every stage he steps on, or whichever room he steps into. And he’s walked straight into the room of my podcast.
So welcome, Andy. It’s so lovely to see you again.
Andy Goram: It’s lovely to see you again, Michelle, really lovely. God, that’s a long bio, isn’t it? My goodness me. No room for chat now that’s out the way. Listen, any chance to have a good old chinwag with you about the things that we’re so passionate about, I grab with both hands, mate. So I’m really happy to be here today. Thank you.
Michelle Pascoe: Look, I’m so pleased that you are. So look, it’s important to read your bio because it just gives my listeners the opportunity to learn so much about you and also to connect with you and your podcast.
So let’s get down to it. Our love of people, of places, of connection, and that feeling of belonging in the workplace. Now, in hospitality, guests remember how we made them feel, but that often starts behind the scenes. How have you seen the alignment between employee experience and customer experience directly shape truly memorable guest journeys? To me, there is definitely a true link between those two, so I’d love to hear your thoughts.
Andy Goram: Yeah, so I don’t think too many people, like you and me, Michelle, when we go out, we’re probably sitting there analysing process, looking at systems, taking the whole thing in. Most of us, most real people, when we go out, we’re just feeling stuff. As humans, we are sacks of emotions being driven by how we feel. I think, particularly when it comes to hospitality, it’s a feeling business, right? We’re going out, we’re making decisions, we’re choosing where to go. Sometimes it’s about the product, sometimes it’s about the environment. All of these things add up into the experience we have and how we feel, and we are directly affected by the girls and guys who are in there doing their thing, trying to make this thing happen.
We’ve all been there. Two places doing the same thing. You’ve got one person who’s engaging with you, seems to be happy in what they’re doing, is chatty, wants to know a bit about you, ends up sharing stuff about themselves. Process happens in the background. I don’t walk away from that place going, “Ooh, lovely, lovely process.” I had a connection. I had a good time. The food might not have been amazing, maybe the price was a bit funky, but actually that all kind of goes into the background when I think about how I was made to feel during that experience.
The other way, I can go to places where I feel like I’m an inconvenience to the person who is serving me, that there is no connection, there is no conversation. It’s very transactional, it’s very functional. The food could be amazing, the ambience could be fantastic, but I’m sort of left feeling, would I go back there? And I tend not to.
I don’t think I’m wholly weird and wholly different to lots of other people. The feeling thing is really important, particularly in hospitality. There’s emotion leaking everywhere in hospitality. Typically, if you go in the kitchens, a lot of the time you can’t really hide it. But I think it’s so important to understand the link between how our people actually feel and what that does to their ability to deliver a truly fantastic experience to your guests. You must see this all the time, right?
Michelle Pascoe: Yes, absolutely. It’s been an interesting conversation over the last three decades, working with the hospitality industry. I suppose it was a real wake-up call right back in the very beginning, where I made a comment in one of my training sessions about the staff room. It was just like this scoffing, and I’m thinking, seriously, what does your staff room look like? I said, “Well, come on down.” It was at that moment I thought there was this total disconnect and also disregard, whether that’s too harsh a word, but I think it was right, in not understanding that you expect your team to deliver upstairs. Upstairs is the shine. We’re providing this amazing service, this beauty, it’s a show, it’s fantastic, because that’s how the leadership team are wanting the frontline team to engage with those members and guests, those patrons. However, how are we dealing with them behind the scenes?
If we were the owner of the business or the senior manager, is this staff room that has broken furniture, last year’s Christmas decorations, old TAB tickets and financial butts from here, chequebooks that are way overdue being thrown out, is that okay? It was this poor whole thing, and I used to think, how do you expect…? It took quite a while, but now, not all, but many of them have really created beautiful spaces for the team so they can come a little bit earlier, or particularly if you’re talking about split shifts, especially in kitchens. They don’t want to travel home and back. They can actually go and sit on the lounge, have a relax, have a meal, and just be themselves for that little while.
Andy Goram: Yeah, I think it’s the messages, intentional or unintentional, that you’re sending to your people. Gaming particularly, my background, some of those back-of-house corridors were just awful. What message are you sending to people? Like, “We’re a people-first organisation,” but we don’t really give that much of a monkeys about it, so you will sit in that dingy old space.
Look, I’m an older guy, right? There’s fantastic new thinking, but there’s also some classic thinking in this sort of stuff. The service-profit chain, the value-profit chain, whatever you want to call it, boils down to happy employees, happy customers, happy shareholders. It sounds very simplistic, but it blinking works. I know what I’m like at work. If I’m in a blinking great mood, if I’m feeling really passionate about what I’m about to do, it doesn’t matter how tough or how tired I might be, I am giving that full beans. I think this is what lies at the heart of hospitality.
I also think some of the missed tricks that we have as leaders in this business is failing to tap into people’s passions. I had a wonderful example a few months ago: a restaurant bar thinking about broadening the craft beer and bottle range. The owner liked the idea, didn’t know much about it, but in his team he had an absolute nutter when it came to this product, craft beer. So in conversation with the team, talking about wanting to do this, this kid was like, “Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that.” So the guy said, “Okay great, well, here’s what I’m thinking. What would you do?” And this kid went nuts.
It was such a passionate thing for them. They not only talked about the product range, they ended up doing tastings for all the staff to get them enthused. They did little videos on tasting notes. They went out to meet some of the suppliers and did videos to send back. The passion and enthusiasm they had for something just oozed through the organisation, through the venue when it came to it.
But just tapping into the passions… sometimes as leaders we think we’ve got to have everything nailed, all the solutions, all the answers, lead from the front on absolutely everything. But that’s unrealistic in lots of cases, right? There’s so much latent potential in the teams inside some of these organisations if people just took the time to engage and understand. To me, that is where hospitality has so much opportunity.
Michelle Pascoe: Look, I agree. I wonder sometimes whether it is fear, or whether that’s the right word, but it’s that concern of, “Well, we’ve had all these years of experience, and this is just some young person who’s coming to the organisation. They’ve only been here a few weeks and they already want to be the CEO.” Yes, well yes, they probably do, but they’re not going to wait around like you have for the last 15 years till Fred finally shuffled off the mortal coil and decided to retire.
Do you feel that that person may be thinking on the inside, “Well, if I allow them to do this, is this going to impact how people see me as the leader?” Whereas I think, as you and I know, Andy, by doing that it just opens up this creativity. You’ve got something else, but the rest of the team are looking at you and going, “Wow, you are being really authentic. You are showing that you are part of a team, not just telling people what to do.” So what are your thoughts?
Andy Goram: Yeah, yeah. What a surprise, we’re kindred spirits on this, Michelle. I can’t get away from the fact that I’m not an expert, right, but I’m a massive enthusiast of the neuroscience and the psychology behind this sort of stuff. We are wired for connection. You used the word belonging earlier, and I’m sure we’ll touch on that again later on, but we’re wired for connection. We’re constantly scanning for people that want our help. Unless we fall into the small dark triad of psychos and all that kind of stuff, most of us are looking to connect and help people.
Now, unintentionally, as a leader, if you’re constantly putting out the message, “I’ve got it all sorted, I have all the answers, I’m really confident, follow me,” chances are not that many people are going to follow you because you don’t need their help. I know the term vulnerability can be misconstrued, but the whole thing about opening yourself up and saying, “Do you know what? I have this idea. I have no idea how to do it,” or, “It’s not my favourite thing to do. Maybe you could help me?” People want to help.
I think that whole thing about opening yourself up, seeing what’s about you, that’s strength in leadership as opposed to feeling like you’re weak, and you’re going to bring great stuff in. As my kids are telling me all the time, Michelle, I am too old to know everything. There is plenty of new thought, new energy, new sources of motivation if we just take the time to have a little look, ask some questions, and engage with the people inside the organisations.
Michelle Pascoe: Definitely, because perhaps sometimes they are the audience that you’re looking for. So why not connect with the people that are in that audience and know? Then they feel like they’re part of the journey, so therefore they become more engaged employees. They tell their friends about, “Wow, where I work, my bosses let me run with this idea.” Then their friends go, “Jeez, that must be a good place to work.” So now you don’t even have to put out applications because people want to work for your organisation because they’re proud.
That one person is proud of where they work. They’ve shared the opportunities they have, and so others come along on that journey. We know, particularly with Gen Z, it is that word of mouth, not just for customers, but it’s word of mouth for employees because they want to work somewhere where they’re going to belong, be seen, be heard. That, to them, is really important. And when a mate, not just because “I want to work where my mate works,” but more like, “My friend is actually going places. He’s being listened to, or she’s being listened to, or they’re being listened to. I want to be a part of that.” So I think it comes back in multiple ways to that one owner or senior leader going, “This is an idea,” just like you were saying in that wonderful example.
Andy Goram: Yeah. I’m a big fan of contribution as opposed to cultural fit. I’d much rather talk about cultural contribution than cultural fit. Fit feels to me like I’m constraining and pushing someone into something, whereas contribution feels a lot more like, what, how do I contribute? There are plenty of people who, if you give them the chance, will contribute.
There’s that horrible Gallup stat of around two thirds of people who are just present. They just turn up, they do the job, that’s it. The sad thing is, I don’t like stats that reinforce it, but two thirds of the two thirds do that because I’ve never been asked. No one has ever engaged with them to have a conversation about it. Is everybody going to have great ideas and want to do loads? No. But we’re not looking for 50 ideas a week, are we? We’re just looking for a bit of connection, a bit of passion, a bit of enthusiasm, a bit of feeling like you’re part of something more than just bussing tables. That’s where all the gold is, I think, Michelle.
Michelle Pascoe: Oh look, definitely. You know that I’ve been a big strong believer of DISC behavioural profiling for nearly 20 years now, and that communication, that connection there, when I’m dealing with the people that I coach, it is about that communication piece. You’re right, there are some people that can sit around a board table and go, “Oh my gosh, I’ve got this great idea,” and then you’ve got your others that will sit back, think about it, particularly those high C’s, and go, “I think it’s a great idea, but I need a bit more information.” They’ll come back in a few days’ time and then add to that beautifully, but a lot of times it’s moved on or people just haven’t given them the opportunity.
I know I find that a lot. I’ve seen leaders go, “Oh, I don’t know about that manager, he never puts forward any ideas, he just sits there in the meetings.” And then when I speak to them, they go, “Oh, I’ve really had some great ideas, but they never get around to me, or by the time they do, somebody else has already had my ideas, so now I don’t know what to say.” So I just say to the CEO, “Put them first. Give them a chance.” It’s something simple, but you could lose a really good employee because you’re just seeing one viewpoint of them. It’s not saying they’re bad, but there are opportunities.
Andy Goram: Yeah, listen, I totally agree. I was with an equine vet conference this week for a couple of days, and we did a bit of high-level behaviour stuff, colour and all that kind of great stuff. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, because we do this for a living, right? But in that room, wonderful, lovely, caring people, leaders, managers, so many of them have a big lightbulb moment when you start doing that behaviour preference stuff, to go, “Sorry, what? They don’t see it like me?” “Yes, they don’t.” “What? Oh yeah. I’ve been thinking that person isn’t engaged because they haven’t been bringing their ideas forward.” “Oh, now you describe it, yeah, they’re reflecting, right, and I haven’t really invited them in or given them a chance to speak.”
That’s happening every day in every organisation, and we’re making loads of assumptions. This all comes back to being a good human: connect, understand, talk, and let’s find out rather than guess. The assumption of what… exactly. But it happens every day because we’re so busy.
Michelle Pascoe: Yes, yes, and you just think, “Oh well, we’ll just move on to the next thing,” which reminds me, we should move on to the next question. You’ll realise, my wonderful listeners, that Andy and I do go off on tangents, but they are important tangents.
So many venues are still focused on fixing the guest experience from the outside in. Can you unpack that inside-out approach to customer experience that you’re so well known for, and why engaged, supported teams are actually the strongest driver of guest loyalty?
Andy Goram: I think, for me, I mentioned the value-profit chain, service-profit chain, briefly before. I think this directly links into that because there’s an element here: if we don’t understand what’s working for employees in the first place, we have no chance of fixing the end result.
I think a lot of this is about getting out of our own way and really understanding what’s going on behind the scenes. What are we making difficult here? Are people really clear on what we’re actually trying to deliver? Have we done the functional thing about, right, your job is to do this, this, this, this, this? Have we explained to somebody, “Hey, what I’d love you to do is to help guests feel this way”? Now, I can give you some advice on how that might happen, and things you might do that might contribute to that, but I’m really interested in how you feel about that. What do you feel comfortable about? Are you clear? What are your abilities, what are your capabilities? Am I supporting you in the right way?
I want you to be fast, fast, fast, fast, fast, and I want you to make connection, and I want you to get all the orders correct, and I want you to upsell, and I want you to make recommendations. That’s a deluge of stuff coming at me. Have I really understood what your capabilities are? Have I really understood how you see your contribution to this overall experience we’re trying to do? Have I even explained that to you? Am I even clear about that myself? Because if I’m not clear about that, how on earth do I get you to deliver the same sort of stuff?
So I think there’s an element of dialogue in here. There is, in the years and years you’ve been doing this, a real thirst and need for people to solve things without really understanding the root causes first.
Michelle Pascoe: Definitely. You’ve just touched on something that’s made my mind go wow. You talked about understanding what their contribution is. I’ll be honest, I know when I’m coaching or training, I was speaking to a financial controller this morning, because she’s a coach here, and we were talking about the domino effect when a mistake is made with finances, when the books don’t balance. So I’m always talking about the domino effect of, well, if the person doesn’t make sure their till is right, then it impacts along X, Y, Z. But I’m just thinking I need to refocus in looking at what their contribution is, and when they contribute, what’s the domino effect in a positive way.
Andy Goram: Yeah, absolutely. Because I think it’s dead easy to go where all the darkness and problems are, whereas I think momentum in this sort of stuff, and encouragement, comes from accentuating some of the good things. We’re often predisposed, and maybe this is education, to spend our time sorting out problems because that means things will be better. I don’t think that’s where momentum comes from. I think momentum comes from where energy is.
If you can infuse and inspire people to understand that they are making a contribution, they’re playing a part, and they can really see how that works, I think that’s amazing. It’s not hospitality-linked, but I remember doing some work in a manufacturing business where guys were on a line cutting out bits of foam into technical shapes. That business was seeing a lot of attrition, and standards were maybe slipping, quality was slipping. The simple remedy was to explain to everybody what these things were actually being used for. In some cases, the tiny little bits of foam they were cutting out were protecting vaccines. Connecting them to sorting out a problem like a disease through the work they were doing and the quality they were creating elevated understanding, quality, effort, the whole thing.
So I think connecting that thing is so important, which is why, for me, I would much rather, particularly in a hospitality setting, really think about how you can make somebody feel. What do you want to do? You’ve experienced that yourself. We go to places, we feel something. How can you help somebody feel something?
We see it a lot, I guess, in selling. “I don’t like to sell, my guests don’t want us to sell.” Okay, but how might you help them have a broader, deeper, better experience by offering a different product, or getting them to try something they haven’t tried before, or giving a bit of yourself in making a recommendation because you’ve had that and you really like that? That’s the same thing, but with a very, very different lens, and sometimes I think we’re looking through the wrong lens on this stuff.
Michelle Pascoe: Look, definitely. And if you don’t sell it to them, somebody else is going to, in some other form. So why not share your experience, share your knowledge, share your thoughts? As you said, you may know the menu, or you may have been to that place, or you may have a recommendation. It just makes such a personal difference. Yes, it is all about contribution, and we all need to feel that we contribute in some way, but at times we just need to be shown what we’re doing and what that positive impact is as well, isn’t it?
Andy Goram: I think that reinforcement thing is really, really important. When you train a dog and they do something right, you give them a biscuit to reinforce that good behaviour. In the moment, in service, in hectic service, when someone does something fantastic, when you catch somebody delivering something brilliant, how often do we, in the moment, say, “That was amazing. What you just did, I’d love to see more of that”? It’s so much easier for us to connect to these things in the moment. If we try and visit it six weeks later in a one-to-one or something, we’ve moved on, we’ve forgotten, we can’t connect to it, and also the emotion that we were feeling at the time when we shared that thing or did that thing differently is lost if it isn’t given some sort of trigger. So I think that’s really, really important.
Michelle Pascoe: Definitely. It’s funny, I get pushback from people who will say, “Well, I don’t need recognition, so why do they need it?” And I go, “Well, some people do.” But also, when you’re giving it in that moment, how great is it making you feel? It breeds this beautiful feeling of seeing it, acknowledging it, and then seeing that smile on that employee’s face, and perhaps the customer they’re dealing with. The others around them see that you’ve actually seen it and recognised it, instead of going, “Oh, here they come again, the boss, ready to catch out every nit picking fault.” That then breeds that culture, doesn’t it?
Andy Goram: Yeah. If you have a culture where you’re encouraging and role-modelling positive feedback and contribution, then you’ll see that spread within that business itself. Also, every time we sort of… I see this a lot, Michelle. People saying, “I don’t need the praise, thanks very much. I don’t need that, I’m just doing my job.” But when somebody praises you, they’ve taken a big personal risk to share a bit of their feelings with you. When you say, “No, no, no, I don’t need that, I’m just doing my job,” the message you are giving to that individual, never your intention, but often, is, “Your opinion doesn’t matter to me.” If you’re constantly being reinforced with “you don’t matter”, we start from an untidy, horrible place to be. We don’t pick up the good thing, you don’t matter. Why are we so surprised, as business owners and leaders, that these people aren’t as passionate and caring about this business as I am? Well, because you don’t care about them. You’re not showing that they matter. So yeah, all these things add up.
Michelle Pascoe: Yeah, it’s pretty 101, but for many it’s like, “Ah, I hadn’t really thought about it that way,” because that expectation is, “Oh well, they’re getting paid.” Well no, people want a lot more, and they always have. It’s just now they’re actually saying it and asking for it, and showing that if they’re not getting it, they will move on. It’s not just Gen Z, either. Other generations are also looking at, “Well, I need to be appreciated because I want to feel that I’m, as you said, making a contribution, but I’m part of something as well.”
We talk about mapping the customer’s journey, and that’s something that we do through my research with our Mystery Shopping program. It’s important in all businesses, but also very much in that hospitality environment. It’s fast, it’s complex, it’s human, it’s all those things put together. What are some practical, realistic ways venues can map, measure and optimise that customer journey without overwhelming their teams? Have you got any insights on that, Andy?
Andy Goram: Yeah, because I was going to say, all that sounds like a lot. I think that’s where sometimes we go wrong, best intent again, to try and nail it. Retail is detail and all that kind of good stuff, but we’re dealing with emotions again here. If we really think about what the journey is about, for me, I don’t think you need to map everything. I think you need to map the things that matter, the moments that matter.
If we think about memories, because this is where we’re at, our memories are triggered by emotions, feelings. I’m a big fan of Pixar movies. You’ve seen Inside Out, you love that. I love that movie. I love the whole idea about the little memory balls and the emotions that trigger those things. That’s what’s going on every day in a customer journey. Actually, customers never think about the journey, they just think about things that happen to them. When we’re mapping this stuff, it’s dead easy to go too far and forget about what we’re really trying to do.
There’s a wonderful psychological rule here by a guy called Kahneman, the peak-end phenomenon. When we remember stuff emotionally, we remember the peak at its highest emotion and remember how it finished. If we just think about our customer journey here for a sec, where are all the moments that matter where we have a chance to think about what do we want somebody to feel at this point? People often say to me, when I start talking about emotions and guest feelings, “Oh look, we’ve got lots of people who want lots of different things. It’s impossible to map all that.” That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about understanding the big rocks of your journey, and at each of those stages, ideally, how do you want a customer to feel during that part of it? If you understand the big rocks and you understand how you want someone to feel, then within that block, where’s your opportunity to get them to feel that thing? Where is that moment that matters? Then what behaviour do you need to show to deliver that moment that matters?
For me, if I’m mapping out a journey, that’s all I want to focus on. Not everything, just the peak moments and the opportunities that I have.
Michelle Pascoe: It does make sense, and it’s so important because you’re right. You can map out every single moment, but it’s not highlighting or giving the opportunity for those moments that matter to really shine, and to acknowledge those that are creating those moments as well, and to give them that feedback of what they did, what they said, or how they interacted with somebody that has made such a difference for that guest that is in front of them, or perhaps has been overheard, is absolutely key.
It comes down to the empowerment of staff. Now, I remember probably 15 or 20 years ago, empowerment was the word. Everybody was empowered to do this, and I was like, “Oh, here we go, another word that everybody is on the bandwagon for.” It was huge back then. It was like pivot during COVID. Empowerment was that word all those years ago, then it sort of died off and we filled it in with some other exciting words. But now it is back, and empowerment this time, to me, is not just empowering somebody that they can speak up. It used to be supposedly they could speak up to me. Now it’s got so much more behind it, that empowerment to make decisions.
I know we haven’t chatted about it, but last year I headed back to the States, back to Scottsdale, for a conference in the middle of the year. When I came back I was mentioning on my podcast how empowered those frontline team members were to overhear me saying to my husband, “Oh gee, I like that. Oh, it’s got garlic.” “Oh madam, the chef can certainly remove the garlic.” They didn’t have to go back and ask, or go to a supervisor or whoever it might be. They were empowered to actually make that decision and decide on behalf of the chef that that could be done. To me, that was that real awakening of, that is true empowerment. You have got not just the empowerment to say it, but you have the support of your team, and the chefs are allowing you to say that. So what are your thoughts when it comes down to empowerment of staff? How are you seeing that empowerment now going into 2026?
Andy Goram: Well, it has to be simple, not just because it’s me and I can’t cope with too many complicated things. I think empowerment is not well understood. Firstly, it’s not about relentless, boundaryless freedom. It’s about confidence as much as anything, which I think comes from a lot of clarity.
As a consultant, my world is lived by two-by-twos and pyramids, right? But I think there’s a really simple pyramid that looks at clarity and freedom, and I think what we’re really talking about here is that nice blend of those two things. What do you want me to do? What am I here to do? What does good look like? Real clarity, giving people real clarity. Where are my boundaries? And then there’s giving them the right amount of freedom, with support and a framework, to express themselves. There’s always that thing in work about conformity and expression. I’ve got these are the rules, and how I deliver those in my own style is my freedom of expression.
I think empowerment comes from clarity and freedom. Where we have ultimate freedom but no clarity, it’s just chaotic and stuff doesn’t happen properly, it goes all over the shop. Conversely, where you’ve got tons and tons and tons of clarity but no freedom of expression, you just get compliance, and that’s that 66% of people just turning up. If we’ve got nothing of either, so no clarity and no freedom, well I’ve got apathy. I don’t care, you don’t care, who cares? To me, it comes from that clarity and freedom, and really understanding what that means.
We can’t help keep talking about the generational effect, whether it’s generational or tenure. I think early in our experience or our career somewhere, we probably really need clarity more than anything, and then, like you said, the support, which will then give us confidence and capability. Over time, we feel more confident to make those decisions or make those calls. I think with experience, if we’re overbearing and giving too much detail, then we’re suppressing that expression. So again, a little bit of clarity is good; less instruction, more freedom within that framework to do what they need to do. So I think, for me, how much clarity does somebody need and how much more freedom can you give them are the two things I would think about in that respect.
Michelle Pascoe: Yeah, and each person is different, a hundred per cent. It’s not a cookie-cutter approach, like, “Well, this is what we’re going to do.” Each area or department within your organisation needs to look at it as a single unit as well.
We talk about measurements, benchmarking and NPS scores. We trail them out at board meetings and staff meetings. “Well, here we were last week, and here…” and banish those ones that are on the bottom there. Let’s humiliate each other because you’re not on the top. Whereas, for a while, people say, “Well, if they’re on the top, they worked hard,” and I’m certainly not saying they haven’t. But what are we doing to help those that are not at the top? Because they’re part of the team. How are we helping them to be a part of the journey? They may not always be the top shining star, but that top shining star, they’ve allowed that person to be the top shining star.
So in your view, what does real success in customer experience look like for hospitality businesses, and what should leaders be paying closer attention to when it comes to these wonderful scoring patterns, whether it’s internally on their teams or whether it’s the NPS scores with their guests?
Andy Goram: Yeah, I mean, this is a whole other topic, scores, right? Because some days I’ll get surveyed after workshops, and I pay as little attention to the nines and tens sometimes as I do to the ones and twos. Because I’m like, this might sound conceited, but there’s no way when I’m in a room this is a one or two, right? Something’s gone wrong. But equally, nines and tens, it’s too easy to tick.
I think what I have to think about is how did I show up, how did I react, how did I change, how did I adapt, all those sorts of bits and pieces. When we come to truly understand the people element of customer satisfaction, now there are lead and lag measures. I know lots of people are really, really happy with things like NPS, which I think has morphed into being used for something it wasn’t originally really intended for. It was supposed to be a future predictor of growth. It was supposed to be that Fred Reichheld one metric to measure, to hold clear, the future of this business from a growth perspective, because if people were advocates, everything would line up. And we’ve morphed it into eNPS now as well, internally: “Would you recommend working here to somebody else?” Okay, I’m not the biggest fan. I’ve used it, and some of my clients love it.
I think this is actually about trying to understand more of the people dynamics underneath, because that’s where our focus is today. If we come back to that value-profit chain again, how are my employees feeling? Because I know that’s going to have a direct impact on my customers, and I can marry up the two. I bet you if you’re tracking how proud someone is to work in your organisation, whether they feel like they belong there, do they have the ability to do their best and contribute every day, if you’ve got high scores on there, I bet you you’ve got high scores on the customer-facing elements.
Now, what do I control? Well, I don’t control either really. Where do I influence? I influence my team, because hospitality is ultimate distributed brand leadership. I have to have everybody in that venue delivering that experience. That’s what I’m being judged on from a customer perspective. So actually, my influence is really on the people inside my organisation. So how proud do they feel? Do they feel like they belong? Do they feel like they’re making a contribution? Are they able to give of their best to me? Those are the things that I would pay most attention to on the inside.
I’d also have a little look at why people are leaving. Maybe exit interviews is a bit much, but a chat, to sort of say, what’s going on? Because the number one reason people still leave businesses is the relationship with their line manager. I think we need to pay a bit more attention to what the managers and supervisors are doing, and how they’re building relationships and trust with their team, because that, I think, retains people. People who stay with us longer understand what we’re trying to do better, have more confidence, and experience in doing that stuff better. So I think those are the areas that I would focus on.
Michelle Pascoe: Yeah, look, it does. You’re right. Too often we wait till we get the text from the Gen Z not coming back, or they just don’t answer the phone, they don’t answer the text, and they don’t turn up. Then the roster just goes out the door, and you’ve got people, until finally one of their buddies will say to you, “Well actually, they’re not coming back,” and you think, why? What? I thought they enjoyed working here. I didn’t know there was anything wrong. And then you can’t reach out to them because they’ve just ghosted you. It’s as simple as that.
So to me, even though we’ve got so much going on, when we’re the lead part of the leadership team or the owner of the business, we need to have our eyes really open when we walk into our organisations and really look at the people, and notice the tiny little changes in people’s behaviour. Is it something that’s happening at work? Are you starting to see on the roster that when they’re rostered with X person that they’re all of a sudden not able to come in? To me, it’s looking for the patterns.
I always remember, and it’s my youngest daughter, who used to say to me, “Mum, I thought on a Tuesday I would say to you…” This is back in Year 3. You didn’t realise that I didn’t like computers, but it just happened three Tuesdays, and I thought there’s a pattern forming here. What it was, I had an Apple, but they were on a PC at school. She was confident on Apple, not confident on PC. So we just got a little PC and it made such a world of difference. That was just me thinking as a mother, but in the workplace it’s the same. What are those changes in behaviours, where there are patterns forming, that should trigger us into having a conversation, or finding somebody who gets on well with them that can have that conversation, not so much dibber-dobber on them, but just checking in? Is there something we can help them with? Do they need an extra resource? Do they need four days off next week and they just don’t know how to tell us?
Andy Goram: Yeah. All they need is a conversation. I know we sound like frauds when we say this is about understanding and connection, but you can’t make those calls, you can’t make those connections, if you don’t understand the person. If you don’t realise that all of a sudden they’ve gone a bit quiet, or they’ve lost that bit of spark, or they seem to be a bit more irritable, what’s going on? All that surface stuff that we see, we’re making loads of assumptions about what it is. Actually, we need to get under the surface level, find out what’s really, really going on, and then we’ll find some answers and then we can do something. The more we can see, the more we can fix.
Michelle Pascoe: Yeah, and then we don’t lose a really good employee who you do truly value. It’s giving them the opportunity to also, back to that word, contribute to the business, and how important that is, and making them feel good.
All right, our one last question, because yes, as you know, we could talk all day. We are on two very different time zones. If my listeners haven’t realised, I’m here, it’s night time on a Friday afternoon in Sydney, Australia, and it is very hot, and Andy is on the other side of the world in the UK, suffering from coldness perhaps, very much wet and cold, mate.
If there is one mindset shift hospitality leaders need to make right now when it comes to customer experience, what would it be, Andy, and why does it matter so much in today’s market?
Andy Goram: Okay. I think maybe it’s dead easy to start thinking, how do I improve the experience? Great intention, yes. Maybe flip the switch, maybe flip the mindset a little bit, to where am I making this hard to deliver? What roadblocks can I take out? What pressure can I ease? What support can I give? Because I think if you’ve got that clear vision about what we’re trying to do, then your job is actually making that frictionless and easy for people to do.
So for me, I would say, where can you get out of your own way? Where can you remove those roadblocks? How can I make this easy for people? Because I think the culture of business is not about all the sunshine lovely days. The real culture of your business is revealed when it’s tough and when it’s hard, and how you can lead into that, I think, is really, really important.
Look, when it comes to hospitality particularly, we can stay in and buy that food and drink and consume that thing at home, but we go out to feel something. The competitive advantage, I think, for hospitality, and it must be the same in Australia, but in the UK hospitality is getting an absolute kicking right now, which makes me feel very sad. But there are a lot of mediocre offers out there because we’re looking at the wrong thing. I think the competitive advantage of hospitality comes back to making a human connection, delivering it consistently, making it authentic, and really helping your people see how they contribute to that.
Michelle Pascoe: Thank you so much, Andy, for your contribution in this conversation that we’ve had today. It is that connection, and that’s what we’ve done here across the international waters. I thank you so much for your time today.
Before we leave, I will put all your links in the show notes. Let my listeners know how they can connect with you, Andy, and hear more on your podcast, but also what you offer to them.
Andy Goram: Yeah, sure. Well look, I would like to think I’m visible on LinkedIn, so you can find me at Andy Goram on LinkedIn. I have a company website called bizjuicer.com. Don’t worry if you can’t spell it, I understand that, but that’s all there. And the podcast is Sticky From the Inside. I have amazing people come on, just like yourself, Michelle. I get to geek out and get passionate about leadership, culture, employee engagement, all those things.
From my perspective, all I really want to do is help people have a better time at work. If we can have more fulfilling work lives, life becomes a lot easier. So whether it’s leadership development, journey mapping, or values and leadership principles, all that kind of stuff, that’s what I get the absolute joy of doing every day. So yeah, that’s what I do.
Michelle Pascoe: You certainly do. Thank you so much, Andy, for joining me today. Take care.
Andy Goram: Take care, Michelle. Great to see you.
