Why Leading with Love Actually Lifts Your Standards

Michelle Pascoe: Good morning everyone, and welcome to this week's podcast. I am absolutely delighted to have this wonderful lady, all the way from Atlanta, Georgia in the USA, as my amazing guest this morning.

Hanna Bauer is the founder and CEO of Heartnomics, a leadership and organisational transformation firm helping leaders rebuild trust, alignment, and resilience in times of pressure and change. A Maxwell Leadership faculty member, Lean Six Sigma Black Belt — and I have got to hear more about that — and a Baldrige examiner. She blends human-centred leadership with practical systems to help organisations eliminate burnout and unlock their full potential. A childhood heart disease survivor and pioneering medical patient, Hanna's story inspires her signature message of love and excellence. Leadership has a rhythm, and when leaders gain it, teams and organisations transform.

Welcome, Hanna. It's so wonderful to have you on my podcast. How are you?

Hanna Bauer: The pleasure is mine. I'm doing great, thank you for having me, Michelle.

Michelle Pascoe: That's good. So look, we've got a few questions, but as my listeners always know, we go on some tangents because there's usually something that one of my amazing guests will say where we just go — oh yes, let's go down that rabbit hole. So looking forward to it. But let's start off with the structured first question.

Hanna, your story as a childhood heart disease survivor and pioneering medical patient is incredibly powerful. What drew you to connect that personal journey with your professional mission around leadership, love, and excellence?

Hanna Bauer: Thanks for asking. Actually, it's because survival was the common denominator — different types of survival. Once I was out there taking on leadership positions, being an entrepreneur, even having my first shot at a real leadership position, I learned that things were not quite like how I expected. And then feeling like the whole weight of the world was on me many times as I tried to manage and balance — and there is no balance. That, combined with motherhood and having five children, I started having a lot of the symptoms that I did back when I had heart disease. So that's actually what drew me back.

I said, wait a second. This time I didn't have heart disease — I was just going through life, wanting to do something with my business, with the services, with the people I worked with. Having gone through heart disease for about ten years of my life since the age of four — the inability to breathe, and even what a heart attack felt like — a lot of those symptoms were very similar to what I was experiencing in a burnout state.

Michelle Pascoe: Wow. That must have been quite confronting. Here you are, you're building a business, you've got a family, and then to be pulled back with those thoughts. What was your immediate thought? Do I stop everything?

Hanna Bauer: I wanted to stop everything, but it wasn't that easy. I had to provide for my family, and it wasn't just that — I had quite the payroll. I had to provide for my employees and their families. So it wasn't a quick decision, and it wasn't like we had a clear path forward either.

What had happened to our organisation is that we were disrupted. Our market was disrupted. We were in print publishing mainly, and there was this rise of ebooks in 2010. It wasn't just our business — it was the entire industry that was feeling the disruption. Nobody knew how to handle it. What does a business plan look like now? What does an ebook look like besides a glorified PDF? What are we supposed to do? Plus, the entire value of the business was put into question, because content was no longer king — it was the context in which it was delivered. It was all of these questions about what our value was and which way we should go, and nobody in the industry was saying, "this is what we're doing, let's go."

So yes, at that time it felt like maybe it was my time to quit, maybe this was the end. And it was at that moment — in all of this ambiguity about what the future looked like — that I remember particularly one of my employees bringing me back to what I needed. He showed me how much he valued being there, because of the difference we were making with our material. That's when I saw what hope does. And it was that hope that got me started on looking for solutions — the same feeling I remembered as a child every time I was going through the painful parts of heart disease.

Michelle Pascoe: Isn't that interesting. Thank you for sharing that, because sometimes we can't always see the answer in front of us. It just took that one person to show you, and then for you to understand.

And you're right — when ebooks came out, it was this massive disruptor. Oh, that's it, nobody will ever read a printed page again, this is the best thing since sliced bread. But I have thousands of books in my library, and I continually buy books. I've just joined an online book club here in Australia — there are 7,000 members. It's about people turning those pages. Yes, I have Audible, it's great, but there's nothing better than holding those pages.

At that stage, that was a real moment — do I close up shop? How do I change? But then, as you said, I'm also having to bring an income in.

Hanna Bauer: Yes. And I have a lot of bills — they don't seem to stop. In the US in 2010, we were just feeling the hit of the recession, the housing downturn. We worked a lot with the government and with schools, and the schools get money from taxes. But there were no taxes to be collected because of the housing situation.

So even the ability to get income had been frozen. Then the way we distributed our products had changed. And then there was a new standard released at that time, so suddenly what was a very niche market for us became an open market — everyone was competing like the big players. It was a time of a lot of fear for me. A change of standards, a change of income, a change in how we delivered our product. All of these things created what we call the perfect storm, and that fear absolutely crippled me as a leader. The whole industry — anyone serving schools at that time.

It did force us to change, and that's where Lean Six Sigma came in for me. That's where I had to learn to really get lean — removing the things we didn't need in order to have clarity. Which is what brought me back to my heart, because actually the surgery that saved my life was a form of a heart catheterisation. They burn away the electrical knots that were causing the erratic, fast heartbeat. But that didn't come out of just one attempt — it came from a failed heart cath, a failed open heart surgery, and then an innovative surgery they had never done in the heart before.

I didn't even know the impact of it until twenty years later, when I got a call from the hospital. They were doing a documentary and told me that same surgery had now saved 3,000 other kids.

Michelle Pascoe: Wow. Gosh. That's incredible. And it's so interesting, because sometimes it's that fear of taking away something that's working, or that we're so used to. But then just trusting, as your surgeons had, that the taking away and the putting in — saving yourself and then all those other children — and certainly in your business, becoming very successful.

So in this fast-paced world of hospitality environments, how can leaders demonstrate empathy without sacrificing standards and structure?

Hanna Bauer: Well, first of all, it's being clear on the standards. That's the number one thing. It's not that there's a lack of standards — a lot of times people just don't know what the standards are. So the first question with empathy is actually what I call the excellence question: how do you know that they know? How do you know that they know what the standard is?

That's the first step, and it does take empathy to ask it — because it means I'm not just handing this off and hoping the standard gets met. I'm asking: what is the feedback loop? What are the signals when the standard is not being met? What are the signals when it is? And even when it's surpassed? And if there is a problem, who catches it?

In hospitality, we don't have to be 100% all the time, but we do have to be 100% at the right time. Empathy says yes, we'll hit all of that — but I need to make sure the mission-critical standard is being met, and that we have the right person for it.

One of the things I love about hospitality is that there is no stranger. There's an embrace. It has to go beyond just the standard — not a clinical setting, but wrapped into all of these other signals, things that welcome the entire environment. And that was something I learned the hard way, when I tried to be the leader who only led by standards — very militant about standards — and forgot the human side. I had to go back to that, because you cannot consistently meet and surpass high standards if you don't also acknowledge, see, and really serve the human who is not only behind those standards, but leading them and bringing them to life.

Michelle Pascoe: You are so right, Hanna. The first point is you have to have the standards in place. After 32 years working with clients, I'm always saying — what are those operational standards? What are those service standards? Because if you don't have those in place, you're just expecting your team to know, and not everybody has that inner knowledge or intuition, or knows how to do it the way that exceeds the expectations of your guests and customers.

And you're right — you also have to have a standard so you can address underperformance. You can't tell somebody they're doing something wrong if they don't know the standard. But you've got to bring that empathy piece into it, because you're dealing with a human. They may do everything 98% of the time really well, and when it's that 2% slip, it's about asking: this is the standard you've always worked to — what's behind that? That is showing empathy. It's key.

Hanna Bauer: Yes, and the thing with the standard is that you cannot decrease it. Think about hospitality — somebody could be unwell, and the temptation is, "oh, we don't have time to deal with this right now, it's okay, I know you had a bad day." But no — we can't do that. The standard doesn't change to fit the circumstance.

And holding the standard is actually an act of love. Sometimes people think that leading with love means adjusting the standard to the person. We can't do that. We don't want that in aeroplanes. We don't want that when surgeons are working on us. So we do have to be very cognisant that we're not changing it. It is loving to have that consistency in standards.

Michelle Pascoe: It certainly is. And going from leadership down to those frontline members working with our customers, our clients, our guests — there's that middle management piece. Senior managers or owners have all the ideas, they've bought into the standards, and they say to the middle management team, "off you go, put these in place," without always showing them the empathy, the structure, or the why behind it. They're just rolling it out and hoping it works.

So what practical steps can frontline managers take to rebuild trust and hope within teams facing high turnover or burnout? Hospitality is one of those industries with a lot of people coming in, burning out quickly, and high turnover — whether it's those at university who are only there for a few years, those saving for something, or those who are just passing through.

Hanna Bauer: Yes, absolutely. My heart always goes out to the middle line manager, because their position is: here are the new rules, the commands, the priorities — now look at execution. One of the most important things for middle line managers is that, while they often feel stuck in the middle like a child between two parents, they are actually in the perfect place to advocate for psychological safety. Nobody understands it better than they do, and they can be the best ones to vocalise it.

Psychological safety is about having that internal understanding of the leadership support that's needed at every level, for different departments and different teams. Because the reason people become transactional is that they feel unseen and unsupported. Being that empathetic voice, and being able to communicate both upward to senior leaders and downward to direct employees, is key for the middle line manager.

They are uniquely positioned to make positive change. If anyone has the heartbeat of the organisation, it is that middle line manager. They'll know when the policy is being carried out — or not.

And burnout? Burnout happens in the misalignment. The hardest thing is, "I heard this, this is how we execute it, and now something seems to have happened and I don't know what." It takes courage to ask those questions, and to take the time to pause.

Communication skills are key. Understanding alignment, and how you bring alignment into the culture on a daily basis — that's the work. Alignment first with the culture, then communicating up and down that line.

Michelle Pascoe: And you're right — they are modelling those behaviours and attitudes around the standard. If they're not quite sure of what the standard is, or feel like they're the only one enforcing it — thinking "why should I be putting all this pressure on myself?" — then the frontline team sees that. They model that behaviour, and it's just replicated. And then we wonder why we lose really good team members, or why those who really want to support the organisation burn out from sheer fatigue, because they can't keep doing the same thing when nobody else is being held accountable.

That middle manager has so much responsibility. And wanting to show senior management they know what they're doing, they don't always feel comfortable asking questions — but it's important that they do. I do think things have changed over the last few years, where the middle line has more support and more ability to ask those questions and even offer thoughts on tweaking a standard for a better outcome — not just for the members and guests, but for the team.

Do you feel you're seeing a shift across industries?

Hanna Bauer: The shift I'm seeing is the speed of adopting new things — sometimes before people even understand them. It's just adopting, adopting, adopting. And I think that's adding to the pressure, because we're adding things without removing anything. It's like buying clothes without cleaning out your closet — you keep putting things on the rack, and eventually you can't see what's there.

There's also a lot of false collaboration happening because everything is so fast. We just take it on, take it on, take it on — until there's a breakdown. And the breakdowns I'm seeing are not small ones. They're massive, and they happen in the things that really cost. I'm seeing short-term collaboration, but not the next step: not taking the time to ask, "what are we getting rid of?"

Because when we talk about agility — think about travelling with a lot of luggage versus travelling light. Agility depends on how much you're bringing with you. As we look at change adoption, it requires the courage to say, "okay, we'll take this — but what are we letting go of?" Just like your closet.

The other part is adaptation. You can't adapt without flexibility, and you can't have flexibility without trust. And that goes back to that line of communication. I'm seeing more of a cry for adaptability, but not yet seeing the conversations about what we're actually letting go of to make space for it.

Michelle Pascoe: I love that clarity. Because when I first started my business all those years ago, you'd go to networking events and come back with shiny ball syndrome — oh my gosh, I've got to add that service, I've got to be able to do this. As you're saying, something either has to give, or you have to consciously and deliberately let something go, instead of just dropping it by the wayside.

And when you've got a team and you're bringing in all these new adaptations — the speed right now is unbelievable — are we adapting correctly? Are we getting the feedback? Are we looking at what these new things supersede, or are we still holding everything on? And then your frontline team, managed by middle managers, is thinking: "we haven't been told we can stop that, so we've got to do that and these six other new things."

Nothing beats communication. Because I've even had senior managers say, "why the heck are they still doing that?" And I'm thinking — you haven't told them to let go of it. It's just your assumption that they would know. And when we're looking at four generations in the workplace, those older generations who have been reprimanded for stopping something without being told — they think, until it's there in black and white, I'm just going to keep doing it.

Hanna Bauer: And that happens in a culture of fear. When there's fear or a lack of ownership, disengagement becomes "I'm just going to do what I'm told — that's the familiar thing, until I'm told to stop." And nobody speaks up, thinking "I don't know if it's my place." That is a reflection of the culture. Nothing happens in an organisation outside of the culture. It's the same as with character — every decision you make reflects it.

And it is true with generations, it is true with the questions. "How do you know that they know?" It's an empathetic question, but it's also an organisational excellence question, because it will test your assumptions. "They should know." Well, how should they know? When are they told? Is it in onboarding? At the quarterly meeting? The weekly meeting? Where does this happen?

And the middle line manager is perfectly positioned — really — to be that connector. Think of apps on your phone — they always need that connector. Some people use Zapier. That's the middle line manager. They make things talk to each other that otherwise wouldn't. If the software isn't integrated — if it's not talking to each other — you can have the greatest system in the world, but it'll cost you enormous effort. The middle line manager is your human Zapier. They're that link that binds everything together.

Michelle Pascoe: You talk about love in organisations, and love is probably a word we just don't use in business — we're supposed to be tough and hardy. But we have seen a softening over the last few years around intentional leadership, showing your authentic self, and being vulnerable. How does embedding love into leadership decisions lead to tangible results like guest satisfaction, team retention, or even revenue growth?

Hanna Bauer: Think about it — satisfaction is an emotion. It's completely tied to love. It's not just data. The things that we truly care about are all a product of love. If I'm asking my leaders to be empathetic, they're going to have to be loving. If I'm asking them to be hospitable — you can't be hospitable if you don't love.

High-performing leaders are also high in emotional intelligence. And high emotional intelligence means you understand the other person, which means you're able to regulate yourself to meet people where they're at. The empathy, the seeking for understanding — that is all based on love.

For me, I tried to lead purely by processes and systems — it didn't work. Because I did not have the rapport with the people. We're not working with robots, and even as AI advances, leadership is still going to be there. When we talk about sales, sales is an exchange of emotion. Are you going to sell something through fear, or through love? People talk about passion, impact — but what is impact? Is it just the dollars? Or is it the application of that currency, and where you put it? And the way you decide that is going to be with emotional intelligence. With love.

We've probably all heard this: people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. I remember — because I went all-in on processes and systems. I became a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt, looking for 99.99999% accuracy, meaning any defect was a failure. It worked for a bit. It was great for the bottom line, until it wasn't, because it wasn't sustainable. I hadn't put the time in to create a culture that would sustain the data, the profits, in a way that didn't feel like punishment. And I had to humble myself honestly. But you can't humble yourself, be your genuine self and your authentic self, if you don't love your people first. That's what I had to go back to.

Michelle Pascoe: And that takes a lot of strength and courage from all leaders — particularly baby boomers and Gen X, because it doesn't always come naturally based on who their leaders were during their career journey. But feeling that they can do that, show that love, and that it will be respected and rewarded — because the team does come together even more, doesn't it?

Hanna Bauer: Well, the great thing is that as a leader, you have 100% of the ability to change the culture. A leader doesn't only know the way — they guide the way and show the way. So yes, it's going to take the leader to go first. Some people will accept it, some won't. And yes, when you show vulnerability, some people will want to take advantage of it — that's part of it. But we know at the end of the day that the greatest things we remember about products, services, and people is how they made us feel.

When you talk about hospitality — the memories made there — your entire industry is made out of love. It's about making spaces where love can speak, so that people can engage in connection. So when we talk about the internal customer — your employees and team members — how can we expect them to be the ones delivering that, when we ourselves are not living it? We cannot give what we don't have. And it does take work. It doesn't mean letting go of the standard or making every day a holiday. You have to create a culture that aligns with the values. And there has to be trust. If you don't have trust, you're not going to have a relationship. A lot of times, people don't show love because there's no trust.

Michelle Pascoe: Yes, and it's just that ongoing circle — trust and love and respect and knowledge, and being part of that culture and understanding what it is. The workplace always fascinates me. How do we bring all these people together to believe in the culture and in what we're doing? The main part of it is that feeling of belonging, that open communication, and building that love and trust.

In hospitality and many other industries, there are those key times of pressure — everybody walks through the door at the same time, orders are flying in, chaos at the bar or in the kitchen. What role does leadership rhythm play in restoring energy and alignment on the floor? I love that word — you even use it in your bio.

Hanna Bauer: A hundred per cent. Right now, the way your heart beats and the way you breathe at rest is different from how it is on the treadmill, and different again when you're driving. Your heart goes faster on the treadmill, and you need it to — if it doesn't, you can't perform. But if your heart stays at treadmill pace all the time, that's exhaustion. You cannot sustain that.

The same is true for leadership. Understanding the rhythm means knowing when your team needs to go fast and maintaining that rhythm — and also knowing when to slow down. I've trained SWAT teams. When they're on a mission, it's absolutely mission critical — you cannot deviate by a centimetre because someone could be hurt. But that's not all the time. When they're not on that mission, they're building trust, building rapport, practising together — so that when it comes time to perform, they know exactly what to do.

That's the coaching leader. The facilitator leader. You have to understand that even within a single day, you are shifting in your leadership. When do you need to be the commanding leader, getting things done? When do you need to be the visionary? When is it the coaching moment? Knowing the rhythm of your organisation will tell you that. And that's where you will have to be in alignment with yourself, in alignment with your values. That is the beauty of leadership. We get to do this together with other people, get into that rhythm, and go to places we would not have gone before. And we also get to take in the rest and the rewards that come with that.

Michelle Pascoe: That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that, because it puts business in such a lovely space. It's not just about the outcome — it's about taking people on that journey, that feeling of love and connection and commitment from the team, ensuring that the experiences they provide — not only to each other but also to their guests — are ones where everybody is fully supported within that culture.

Thank you, Hanna. Our last question — and I think we could talk all day — is what lessons from your life and work can inspire hospitality professionals, both on the floor and in the boardroom, to lead with resilience and heart in today's certainly unpredictable world?

Hanna Bauer: One of those is acknowledging the unpredictability — and knowing that the time to get ready for unpredictability is before it arrives. And that is honestly a daily thing.

One of the things I went through managing a terminal diagnosis was learning to be okay with not being okay. I had to take in those rewarding moments and breathe. When it didn't hurt, I breathed with all my mind. And I believe it's the same for leaders. There are times of high pressure, but that's not all the time. Do the standards at the times of pressure. But during those lower-pressure times — live it out with your team. Reward people. Value people. Encourage people. It goes a long way.

And make those deposits. Not in the time of pressure — every single day. Make opportunities, because sometimes the opportunity doesn't knock — as leaders, we get to make the opportunity. Make those deposits of encouragement, make the ability to add value. That's one of the greatest things.

The saddest statistic I've recently read is that over 65% of employees feel not seen. Not dissatisfied with what they do — just not seen. So how are you making people feel seen today as a leader? Start with seeing people. Let them know they are seen. You'll be surprised how far that goes. People notice those deposits — not when there's pressure, but when you've made them consistently before the pressure arrives.

And the question comes back to: how do you know that they know they're being seen by you?

Michelle Pascoe: I love that — I just wrote that down. The deposits of encouragement. I just love that terminology, Hanna. Because it's so true. I have very strong conversations with clients who say, "I don't believe in recognition, I don't need it, so why do I have to tell them?" And we've heard all that pushback. But every employee wants to please their employer and make sure they're doing the right thing. It may not be your style, and you may feel that you don't need it — but I truly believe everybody loves some form of encouragement or recognition. And it's about understanding what that team member needs. If that encouragement is what takes them to the next level, then when the pressure points come, they give back because their bucket is full from all those deposits.

Hanna Bauer: That's exactly why my company is called Heartnomics — it's the economy of the heart. The currency of the heart is trust. When you go to the bank and keep making withdrawals — withdrawal, withdrawal, withdrawal — you go into the negative. And what does the negative look like in leadership? Disengaged employees. A hostile culture. A culture full of fear.

So it is about making daily deposits as a leader — investing in the culture you want to have, not the culture that currently exists. If you're not happy with the way it is, the great news is: you are perfectly positioned to make a difference. But you have to make those deposits. Trust deposits. Because that's how people buy into the leader before they buy into the vision. They're not going to follow just because of the vision — they buy into you first. So how are you adding value and making those deposits into those accounts, so that people can buy into what you're saying, go to a vision they've never seen before, experience it, and know that they're part of something?

Michelle Pascoe: Hanna, I've loved our conversation. I will certainly put all the links in the show notes because I know you're active on LinkedIn and other areas — but please tell us: your website, how can people get in contact with you, and how can you help them?

Hanna Bauer: Thanks for asking. You can go to my website, heartnomics.com. If you go in there, I have a complimentary alignment assessment for individuals and for organisations. LinkedIn is also a good place to find me — I still answer all my messages, so search Hanna Bauer. You might have to wait a day or two, but I'll be there.

The ways I can help: executive coaching, finding your purpose and aligning with it so that performance follows. And for executive teams, I help them form, understand the baseline of their talent pool, and move to the next level — looking at governance and strategic leadership. That's how I'm able to serve.

Michelle Pascoe: That's wonderful. Thank you so much, Hanna, for your time and for sharing your expertise and insights with my listeners today. I wish you all the very best in your business. And please, listeners, reach out to Hanna and learn more about the amazing work that she does. Thank you so much.

Hanna Bauer: Thanks, Michelle.