TRANSCRIPT: Why The Best Leaders In Hospitality Are Unforgettable
The Michelle Pascoe Hospitality Podcast
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Michelle: Welcome everyone to today's podcast. I have a gentleman Eoin Clancy all the way from Dublin on our call today, and I know this is going to be very insightful. The questions I've got to ask of Eoin are probably going to have you thinking, "Oh, I don't know about that question, Michelle" — but they're going to get us to the answers that perhaps we're not always willing to say out loud. So it is going to be a lot of fun.
Eoin Clancy is an operations manager who got sucked into consultancy. He is a seasoned hospitality professional with hard-won experience of designing, building, and running operations from the ground up — from Hilton, Marriott, and the Crowne Plaza to the Cheesecake Factory. I must say I love the Cheesecake Factory. I am just a sucker for that when I go to America — going through those menus, all those choices. From Europe and the US to all over the Middle East, Eoin has opened units for some of the most capable and professional companies in the world, as well as opening his own multi-unit operations. He is now the Principal Associate for Galileo Hospitality Consultants. Welcome, Eoin — it's so lovely to have you on the podcast.
Eoin: Michelle, nice to be here.
Michelle: So look, let's get into it. As Eoin and I were just saying, it's the end of my day and the start of his, and we've both got places we'd like to be — but more importantly, we want to get into these questions for my listeners. So, Eoin, my first question: you've worked inside some of the world's most highly respected hospitality brands and you've also built your own multi-unit operations. In your experience, is a servant leadership style genuinely practised in hospitality, or is it mostly aspirational language that masks a command-and-control culture underneath?
Eoin: I think you're right — there is a lot of aspirational aspect to this. The practical application is sometimes sadly lacking. I've met some great leaders in my time, to be fair. The Cheesecake Factory — my wife doesn't think it's a company, she thinks it's a religious cult, the way I go on about it. The level of attention to detail is very, very important for the success of an operation, and you can literally tell the sheep from the lambs with the Cheesecake Factory.
I had a boss — the global director of operations — a fantastic guy who worked us like dogs. We didn't do a thirty-seven-and-a-half-hour week. But it was strange, because it was actually very enjoyable. I said recently to somebody: if he called me tomorrow and said, "Eoin, I just need someone to do a week's opening — would you come over?" I'd drop everything and go. Now that tells you an awful lot about the impact that person has on you long-term, and on the way you deal with people and manage operations.
When you see somebody who can do everything that you do — it's not that he's somewhere over there telling you what to do. He's standing there beside you saying, "This is how we do it." And then from a servant leadership perspective, he steps back and says, "I want you to do it. If you ever have a problem, come to me and I will help you solve it." Very hard not to fall for that style of leadership. And I think it's because it's the best way forward. Through forty years of experience, I've seen that it produces the best results. Your team will stay with you longer, work harder, and they're far more likely to achieve their KPIs — and genuinely have more fun doing it.
Michelle: Definitely aspirational, not often achieved — but as you say, people often put it in as a mission objective.
Eoin: Which is a shame, because when you see it working, it just works really well.
Michelle: And it was actually last year — I did a podcast episode about a time I spent in Phoenix, Arizona, at the Cheesecake Factory in Kierland. I went a couple of times, just talking to the wait staff and the manager of that venue. You could really see that aspirational system working. You're right — no matter what business it is, if you've got the right person who can just breathe this philosophy, it goes from one person across the whole team, and then out to your guests. But sometimes you have the idea and it just doesn't always come to fruition.
Eoin: I've worked with a couple of companies who were perhaps a little lower down the list of places people want to work. When I was younger and perhaps a little more foolish, I jumped at titles and roles that were offered, and somewhat hastily regretted it on more than one occasion. I did work for a company that was recently rated as the worst hotel company in the UK — it shall remain nameless. But you actually learn almost as much from the people who are really bad at their job as you do from the people who are really good. You need to be a little more discerning about what you want to adapt and incorporate into your own style.
Working for Marriott in Atlanta, the hotel had 1,674 rooms — a huge operation. I can still tell you the name of the general manager: Ted Ranner. He used to know everybody's name. 1,800 staff. And he wasn't just reading name badges — this was somebody who genuinely valued his team, and you could feel that coming from him. It meant that we valued our jobs far more, and were far more likely to contribute at a much higher level of productivity. He created an atmosphere. Knowing 1,800 staff by name — knowing their families, their favourite things, their stories — that created a real feeling of belonging. And that's what employees are looking for.
Michelle: It's creating that real family feeling, isn't it. That sense of belonging. And when you get that right, people want to come and work for you, they grow, and then they duplicate that same feeling to others.
Eoin: Very much. I was dealing with a supervisory management team just yesterday, allocating them little projects while I'm away on vacation. They'll work in pairs — it draws them together, makes them work better as a team. The idea is that we're building that community spirit. People become self-reliant on each other. You help me, I help you. You build trust. And then people tend to stay longer.
The issue we quietly have in hospitality is the revolving door. If you can reduce the speed of that revolving door — if people stay longer — you're investing less time in initial induction and spending more time on their growth and development. There have to be some promotion opportunities too, to be fair. But sometimes it's simpler than that. I was dealing with someone yesterday who was at a lower level than he should be. The issue? He has family commitments that are his overriding priority. So I sat down with him and said, "What can we do? I'd like you to take on more responsibility, but to make that happen, we need to arrange things around your children, your wife, your wider family. How can we blend the two?" If we get that balance right, the loyalty that comes back is exceptional. His productivity will rise. He'll be much more contented. And contented team members create a more positive environment for the people around them.
Michelle: And what you were also talking about — the season of life that person is going through — we're going to see a lot of that now, particularly with Gen X in senior leadership roles, looking after ageing parents while still potentially having children at home or caring responsibilities for grandchildren. To be a really great employer is to recognise that. Instead of saying, "You're obviously not interested in the role," you have a discussion. "You're in this season of life. What can we do to support you while still achieving what we both need?" You'll get that extra loyalty, and you'll keep somebody who is really good at their job — instead of going through another recruitment cycle, spending months hoping the next person is the right fit.
Eoin: Exactly. And there are so many compliance training modules that staff must complete by law. If you're constantly starting back at base one, it's exhausting — emotionally, physically, and financially draining. Reallocating your energy so you can spend a little more time building relationships with your team, developing them, offering them opportunities — the payback is phenomenal.
Michelle: And then there's how it flows through to guests. The relationship your frontline team has with guests means not only do those guests return, but they recommend. We all know that personal recommendation — from a mate at work, or someone on the train — is what really builds businesses. Because they've had a great relationship and a really enjoyable experience.
Eoin: A hundred percent. The people who walk in your door, when they walk out, should be your advertisement. And interestingly, when something goes wrong, you have an opportunity to turn them into a walking, talking billboard. If you come in, have a pleasant experience, nothing goes wrong, you walk out thinking, "That was nice" — you probably won't tell anyone. But if you had a problem and it was solved correctly, with a little bit of care — maybe even a little bit of love — by definition you're going to be far more impressed. It's a more remarkable experience, and you're more likely to talk about it.
Michelle: And sometimes it can be something really simple. Last night was my husband's birthday. We went to Eschalot in Berrima, in the Southern Highlands — a beautiful, well-recognised restaurant that you book weeks in advance. Now, my daughter and I love a cocktail, but my husband doesn't drink alcohol. So he's sitting there reading through the mocktail list, going, "No, I don't like this one..." Then he looks at one and says, "Cranberry, orange, pineapple — I'll have that." And the waitress very kindly said, "Sir, that's actually our juice list." And without missing a beat — instead of making him feel embarrassed — she said, "Would you like me to make you a very special tropical cocktail?" He said yes, and she went away and came back with this beautiful big glass, ice, an umbrella, and said, "That's complimentary for your birthday."
We had four courses and literally rolled out. It cost us a lot of money, but we'll be back. And we'll refer. All because she made him feel absolutely special — just through the way she handled a simple moment where he'd misread the menu. And how many times have you been somewhere and had someone correct you and felt embarrassed? Particularly if you're with people you don't know. The way she handled it was beautiful. And that doesn't come from rote training — that comes from somebody who loves what they do.
Eoin: And it comes from somebody who's been given the space to do that. Who has been — to use the old word — empowered. If you can get your team to that level on a regular basis, think about their work life. They're having more fun. They have more control. They're not just cogs in a machine — they have some autonomy over how they interact with people and how they enjoy their day. And that contact point between the company and the guest is one the manager can't always manage, because they're not physically there. They have to entrust their employees with the autonomy to handle these moments.
I had an issue yesterday in a hotel — a problem with a breakfast juice that was apparently out of date. I looked at it, and the date they were reading was the production date. The expiry date was just below it in slightly smaller print. I said, "I had to take my glasses off to read it — don't worry about it." And she said, "Are you down for breakfast tomorrow? Call me — we'll make sure everything is perfect for you." Then she shook my hand. Those are the moments you got into hospitality for.
That's right. That's why we do this. And the people who aren't interested in that need to go work in banking or insurance — or a mushroom farm. No offence to banking. But we're trying to cradle the guest a little more. Give them the feeling that we are here to help, no matter what. And the juice turning into a cocktail is a perfect example of that.
Michelle: Now — we know there's a lot of conversation about younger generations in hospitality. Particularly Gen Z. I don't know if it's the same where you are, but here you hear: "They have no initiative, no common sense." There's a bit of negativity. But I think that exists with every generation — it's just that people always pick on the newest one. You've operated in environments where the workforce spans multiple generations — from the Hilton to the Cheesecake Factory, Europe, the US, the Middle East. When a hospitality operator is making hiring decisions, what is the genuine business case for employing older, more experienced staff? And where do operators get it wrong?
Eoin: In hospitality, image is a lot of what we sell. Let's be honest — social media plays a massive role in the decisions people make. And on social media, "old and wrinkly" doesn't really cut it. People are looking for something young, fresh, and vibrant. But the reality is starkly different to the image.
Younger people are high in energy and enthusiasm in many ways — but there are parts that aren't quite so perfect, let's be fair. And I have noticed a massive difference post-Covid. It has undoubtedly affected the mental health of a lot of our younger employees, and I understand that. I get it — it affected me too. But at the same time, there are some people who have, to a certain extent, taken advantage of that situation. If you handle those situations adroitly, you can often turn the person into a far more productive employee — but it takes a lot more patience than it did twenty or thirty years ago.
Referring back to servant leadership — if you're willing to spend the time sitting, talking, and most importantly listening, you can get massive returns. From a management perspective, we often slide past the listening part. We know what we're doing, we need to get on with it. But sometimes you just need to listen to the personal circumstances the person is facing. Sometimes it may seem trivial to us — but to that employee, it's massive. The vast majority of these people have been dismissed by previous managers. They're waiting, yearning, for someone who will genuinely hear them. If you can provide that, life becomes a lot easier.
I did some work with a well-known British gourmet food company recently, focusing on tasting menus. There was a girl who said, "I just can't take it anymore — the chef's been shouting at me, he's been abusive." I asked why. "Because I got the order wrong." And as I listened, I realised: she had delivered course five instead of course four. That meant the wine pairing was wrong, so the bar manager was annoyed. Then the diners were getting the wrong course, which was escalating quickly. But she couldn't see any of that — she just felt like everyone was unreasonably angry at her.
I didn't have to say anything. All I had to do was ask a few pointed questions. "Why did this happen? How did that make you feel? How do you think they felt?" And suddenly things opened up. She became far more understanding of the wider picture. Once they've had the opportunity to open up, things can be smoothed over — not always, but frequently.
Michelle: They're starting to see it from two points of view, aren't they. They're seeing it from where they stand — feeling attacked or yelled at — but then the broader view opens up. Now they're thinking about the bar, the wine pairing, the diners. Some guests will be fine about it, but others will not. And suddenly they're not just dealing with a frustrated chef and a bar manager — they're dealing with an unhappy diner, which escalates very quickly and becomes uncomfortable for everyone.
What are your thoughts on the older workforce in hospitality? We're so focused on Gen Z being the biggest generation entering the workforce over the next decade. But what about the top end of Gen Y and Gen X? Many Baby Boomers have retired, though some are still wanting to continue — even in frontline roles. Do you see a large cohort across those three generations who enjoy the workplace but perhaps aren't getting a fair go?
Eoin: I think it is changing. People with more experience are being slightly more valued — the perception is improving. My recommendation to operators is to employ a wide variety of age groups. If everybody is young, what will happen is they'll go out together, and people won't turn up the next morning — it's as simple as that. In my experience, a blended workforce works best. Older staff — particularly older women — tend to be a little bit "mother hen" in their approach. They put their arm around the younger team members and stabilise them, give them more of a connection to reality. It's a fantastic dynamic to have that blend of different ages. We work beautifully together and we can learn so much from each other.
Michelle: In your bio you described yourself as someone who got sucked into consultancy after a career running real operations — and that's a different starting point from most consultants. How should a hospitality operator evaluate whether bringing in a consultant will actually deliver a return? And what are the signs they're about to waste their money?
Eoin: Good point. I got a phone call completely out of the blue from someone saying, "We need a little help." The first thing I did was sit down with them and listen — write down what their needs were, analyse them, make sure this was actually what they needed, and then find ways to satisfy those needs. It was a small boutique hotel with a couple of restaurants and bars, and they had some serious issues — including joint general managers who needed to move on. Reorganising a management team is challenging. People do not like change, especially when they've been doing things their own way.
The "sucked in" part was interesting. I'd arrived back in Ireland — I'd been abroad for many years — and my father was here. He was ninety-one and has unfortunately since passed away, but I got to spend quite a bit of time with him, which was wonderful. I got drawn into consultancy simply because I spoke to an entrepreneur who had quite a few operations — hotels, restaurants, bars — and he said, "I need you to do some auditing for me." We formed a plan, delivered on it, and then I got another call. And another. And another. I like the challenges. I like the rawness of it. And there's nothing like walking away from a project, shaking hands with the client, and knowing they're looking you in the eye thinking, "We got the job done."
Michelle: So if a company is looking at bringing in a consultant — what are two things they should be looking for, or two questions they should ask?
Eoin: Experience goes without saying — but there also has to be a cultural fit. In that initial conversation, you need to feel that you're compatible with the person you're talking to. I've spoken to quite a few consultants who think they know everything about their subject in depth — and in many cases they do — but most hospitality companies need a generalist, because there isn't just one problem. The issue isn't isolated to one area. It's cultural. It runs through the company. You need someone who can step back, take a helicopter view, and say, "You've got an issue here — but have you looked at this? Is this one of the contributory causes?" That cultural fit will reveal itself within ten or fifteen minutes.
And don't feel embarrassed about your own lack of knowledge. Nobody in hospitality knows everything — nobody does. That's the beauty of it. We're all learning and growing. Some people have just been down certain roads a lot farther and a lot deeper. You're looking for the people who've been down the roads that you need help with.
The boutique hotel was stunning — copper baths in the rooms, jacuzzis on the balconies, looking out to sea. But the owners were smart enough to know what they didn't know. That is unusual, and I actually got asked to come back and do more work with them afterwards. The owner said, "When the new rooms are finished, come and stay on us and have dinner." That's the tip left on the table. I didn't need the money for it — what I was looking for was knowing he was happy with what had happened.
Within one of the companies I was working with, I noticed a rather laddish, overly masculine attitude towards the teams. I proposed an anti-bullying training session — and I was laughed at when I said I'd need ninety minutes. They thought it was a waste of time. At the end of it, the manager came over, looked me in the eye, shook my hand, and said, "That's probably one of the most interesting things I've done in the last couple of years. I didn't realise how many potential mistakes we were making — how close we were to having lawsuits." The Workplace Relations Commission in Ireland — our equivalent of a labour board — has seen case loads increase by twenty-three percent in two years. Increasingly, younger employees are taking that route. The cost to employers is phenomenal. I cannot emphasise enough how important a servant leadership style is to ensure you don't end up in labour court — but more than that, morally, we should be doing the right thing to help everyone sleep at night.
Michelle: How interesting that you saw that from the outside, as a consultant — and didn't just suggest the training but held firm on it, even when there was mocking laughter at the start. And then to watch them walk away realising how far behind they actually were. That's the value of having that broader generalist view — having seen the same scenario somewhere else, and knowing how quickly it can go wrong.
We talk about Michelin stars in hospitality — that ultimate status symbol. And yet we've seen some high-profile chefs hand them back. You've worked across fine dining and casual dining. Is fine dining on the decline as a business model? And is there an argument that surrendering a Michelin star can actually be a smart operational decision?
Eoin: Getting the star is the pinnacle of achievement. It's what people dream about — literally dream about. And yet — and this is where the pause comes — the work involved is back-breaking, heart-breaking, and family-breaking. Hospitality has the third highest divorce rate of any industry. Chefs are even higher on that list. So there is a price to pay.
Gordon Ramsay has lost thirteen stars in his career — but he currently has nineteen, so that's what we focus on. There is a very strong case for handing back a Michelin star, but only after you've achieved it and held it for a couple of years. Because then you can genuinely say "Michelin-starred chef" — and you can make a very smart strategic move: "We've held this star, we've built our reputation, and now we're reducing prices to make the experience more accessible to more guests." From a marketing perspective, that is a very intelligent strategy.
The problem with operating at Michelin-star level is one word: consistency. Hitting eight out of ten every single time is a fantastic objective. If you try to push to nine and a half, you can't maintain that consistently — it's not feasible. It might be better to live in the seven-to-eight-and-a-half zone rather than striving for the nine-to-ten zone and occasionally falling short. And from a purely financial perspective, Michelin-star restaurants go bust with alarming regularity. If you can get the star, hold it for two or three years, then make the deliberate decision to delist — you can then build a larger restaurant, develop higher revenues, and achieve better margins because you're not sourcing exclusively expensive ingredients. It's a far more stable financial base on which to build.
Michelle: That's interesting — because I saw something today where a venue was marketing a new chef with the line "chef from a Michelin star restaurant." I thought, that's a wonderful way to market this person, but it puts a huge amount of pressure on them. Some guests are going to arrive with very high expectations.
Eoin: You're right — you're taking a risk. And I'll come back to the word I keep using: consistency. Consistency is the key to building a strong business in hospitality. The kitchen is consistently clean, the food is consistently good, the service levels are consistent. One of the first things I look at anywhere is systems. I need to see the open and close checklist. I need to see the script for the receptionist when they answer the phone — how many rings before they pick up? Three? Five? You have to break it down. Good companies do that. Bad companies say, "We have a manager who takes care of that." Good companies say, "Here is our standard operating procedure. This is how we train you." That shows consistency across the board. Employees know exactly what's expected of them. There are no misunderstandings. And then you can build a solid business on that foundation.
Michelle: Definitely. And there's no misinterpretation either. Look, we could talk all night — or all day in your case. Eoin, I've loved how you've shared your knowledge and some really rich, vivid stories that show the impact of hospitality in all its glory, and in its hard moments too. With Galileo Hospitality, what is the single most common and most costly mistake operators make when launching a new hospitality business?
Eoin: First, your marketing has to be spot on. You need your market segment clearly defined, and your marketing plan has to attract the people who are going to pay your bills. Then focus on your team. Ensure they actually know what they're doing. At the Cheesecake Factory, we trained our staff for sixty days before opening. It was a monstrous labour cost — but only a company of that size can do that. If you're a small operator opening up, you still must ensure your staff are trained for all eventualities.
Consistency. I cannot emphasise this enough. It's what makes your operation tick. It's what brings customers back. Ensuring your food quality is consistently good, your service consistently warm, your standards consistently met. Once you can achieve that on a regular basis, life becomes much easier. And finally — listen to your guests. Find out what they're thinking as they walk out the door. We need to listen to each other within the team, and we need to listen to our guests. That's how we grow.
Michelle: Eoin, thank you so much for sharing your wonderful knowledge and wisdom. Is there a question I haven't asked that you'd like to share something about?
Eoin: You've been very comprehensive. All I would say is this: good hospitality professionals will recognise each other's wavelength very quickly. That's my final thought.
Michelle: Perfect. Thank you so much, Eoin. I look forward to our paths crossing again in the future.
Eoin: Great chatting to you. Thank you. Bye.
Michelle: Take care. Bye bye.
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