What Does It Take to Become a Club CEO?

TRANSCRIPT: What Does It Take to Become a Club CEO?

The Michelle Pascoe Hospitality Podcast

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Michelle: Welcome everyone to today's podcast. We're going to have a fun conversation. I've just spent a few minutes speaking to my guest, who I haven't met face to face, but you always know when it's going to be a really informative but also interesting conversation.

Born in Manchester in the UK, Lewis has worked behind the bar since he was 15 years of age. He moved to Australia after dropping out of law school in his early twenties, and worked mostly with private hospitality organisations specialising in new venues and cocktails. Lewis's club life started at Club York in 2013, and he's been in and out of clubs since then. He's worked for international groups and TV chefs like Manu and Phil Davenport, before moving back to a full time club career. Lewis moved out to the country three years ago, and now likes to shoot, fish and four wheel drive when he's not obsessing over spreadsheets at the Young Services Club.

Welcome, Lewis. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Lewis: Thank you so much, lovely to be here. Thanks for having me. Nice to digitally meet you, which I feel I meet most people these days, in work and personal life.

Michelle: That's the way we're going, isn't it.

Lewis: So it is. Lovely little bio there, it's all true. Looking forward to having a chat, see what you throw at me, see what comes out of it.

Michelle: Perfect. And for my international visitors, Young is in the state of New South Wales here in Australia, and it's regional. It's a beautiful area that people have made that tree change to, and perhaps we'll have a chat about that shortly, Lewis. We can clamour to the outer edges of Australia, but it really is beautiful to get into our regional areas.

So let me ask you the first question. You've stated here in your bio that you started at 15 behind the bar in Manchester. What was it about hospitality that got into your blood so early, and did you ever imagine then that it would become a career, and you'd be sitting here in this beautiful town of Young, running a club?

Lewis: I guess there are a few questions within your question. How did hospitality get into the blood? Well, it's not even so much starting at 15 and technically glassing, I pulled a few beers too, it's a lot more loose in the UK and still is. But truthfully, it's the pub culture. It's UK pub culture, I'd say. You grow up in pubs. Everybody's looking out for each other, everybody wants a nice cold beer after a long day, sometimes before they go home and have a longer day.

Just being from the age I was born into, I guess it might have been the way things were 40, 50 years ago. That's what I grew up with in the UK. You go and wet the baby's head, and from then you're in the pub, and maybe the barman's looking after you, or an uncle or an auntie, or you go and see your dad when you need a packet of chips, and that's it, you're running around. Just growing up in that pub culture, I guess. I've always loved hospitality venues, always liked being in those social environments.

I was working in some capacity from 12 or 13, in a market stall, and then the first real one was, loosely, what you'd call a nightclub. Sort of a conservative club and function room, very old school British, collecting glasses and pulling a few beers at 15, 16. I liked that, but I didn't really fully get into hospitality until I was at university studying and took a part time job to pay for things. That was with Wetherspoons, which if you've been to the UK you'll know. I think that's a great place to start, they had a thousand pubs at the time, so I got a really good introduction and structure to hospitality. A good education, more than just the people side of it, which is the most important part. I was able, from a pretty young age, say 20, 21, to already be on that management track, already on that training, and that was great.

Did I see myself doing that long term? No. Short answer, no. I was pretty well pressured, I don't want to blame anybody, I was an adult, but pressured, I guess, into doing something with my brain that other people thought was a good thing to do. I wasn't bad at it, but it just wasn't me.

Michelle: Is this university you're talking about?

Lewis: University, yeah. It's one of those things, my mum, I hope she doesn't see this, but my mum used to say you can be anything you want as long as you're a doctor or a lawyer. I think I'd add plumber to that now, because there's a heck of a lot of rich plumbers out there, it would be a very different conversation today. I almost did, I had an opportunity to be a sparky, and maybe that would have been the way to go, but no, I ended up doing spreadsheets instead.

I think I was subconsciously committed to hospitality pretty early, without really knowing that was the way I wanted to go, until uni blew up and I went, I don't want to do this, I'm not finishing it, I'm not doing my practice certificate, I'm not doing this lawyer stuff, I don't want to sit in an office, it's boring, I hate it, I'm quitting, and I'm going full time in the pub. Which you can imagine how well that went down with mum. But people were supportive, I saved up a bit of cash, came out here, and then between living in Australia, backpacking, working in bars, meeting people, sometime between working in Fortitude Valley in a flair cocktail bar and working for Cirque du Soleil in the VIP room, I went, yeah, I could do this forever. That's where it came, when I got here is when I thought, yeah, this is it.

Michelle: And I'm sure your mother is very proud of where you are now.

Lewis: She is now. We're in the payoff phase, Michelle, we're okay now. Years of finishing at 4am and being broke, she probably wasn't quite as impressed back then.

Michelle: Probably not. But what's so interesting, Lewis, is so many people in the hospitality industry, particularly in clubs, that's how they start off. They're at university, it's a second job. But what we need to see, and we constantly say this in our clubs here in Australia, is you've got to keep screaming it out, it's a great opportunity, there are so many jobs in this.

I think people can be really stymied into thinking, oh well, it's just bar or it's just gaming, but when they get in there's the dining, there's marketing, there's operations, it's a whole gamut of opportunities to create a career.

Lewis: Yeah, well, I think there's a perception problem, there's a stigma, certainly in this country. If you go to some European countries, your service staff are professionals, right. This is a career, not just a casual part time job, and you take it seriously, you're professional. That might be a waiter, that might be a casual bartender or something like that, but a lot of the time they're on a track and they can see that potential career path there. Whereas here, that's the minority for sure.

I think people fall into the business, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a great place when you're young, if you're studying or not quite sure what you want to do, to come and get some cash, some work experience, and a bit of life experience, if you're in a pub or a club. We really need to show those young people that the pathways are there, that the opportunities are there. It's difficult changing perception on an entire industry and career, but you can sit here in this chair now and talk to people and say, well, it was probably the last time I did a dishy shift, five or six years ago, you put the work in, the opportunities are there. In clubs particularly, especially now, I think for young people it's probably never been better.

Michelle: And I think the way you've done it hasn't been that linear path of going to university and doing a degree in hospitality, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that, but do you feel the journey you've gone on has had a different outcome for you, on what you pursued?

Lewis: Yeah, definitely. It goes back, I guess, right to the start, in that I was kind of lucky in a way, I did three years of academia, so I saw that side of it, had a taste of where that goes and what it looks like, and was able, at a pretty young age, to realise what I enjoyed and what I wanted to do, but then also to make a plan. As much as it hasn't been a linear path, I've always been career driven, and you've got to be, I don't think you get to where you need to be if you don't consciously pursue opportunities.

The main way I went about things was trying to build my skill set. Those places where I was getting that mentorship, or getting those opportunities to take on extra work, that's often the way it happens. Or being involved in things that were maybe a pay grade or two above where I was. When I had those opportunities, I took them. And then the other side of it, and I don't think a lot of managers would say this, certainly not to the staff who work for them, is interview, interview, interview. That's what I did. Even just for information, even just for feedback. If I go for a job that's twenty grand, fifty grand, whatever, over where I'm sitting right now, or it's in a much bigger place, or a different section of the industry, or has interesting ownership, whatever, and go, you know what, that would be fun, interesting, it would be motivating for me and I could probably learn a lot. It's about saying, okay, well I'm good enough, compared to everybody else, you're not competing with the job description, you're competing with everybody else applying.

So I think the best thing you can do is build that understanding of where you sit in your skill level, where you need to grow, where you need to develop. While you're doing interviews, you might do twenty interviews, you might do fifty a year, you might not take another job, but you're going to get offers, you're going to get rejections, you're going to get feedback, you're going to get a load of information on what a job might look like and what those owners or managers are looking for, and you adapt. When those jobs do come up and you do get them, you're giving yourself more options.

The other side of that is to not be afraid of leaving, change is key. I'll say lucky quite a lot, in that most of my career growth has come in the last few years, one because I set myself up very well, but that's going from a growth and development phase into an okay, well now I'm going to start putting my foot on the rung of that club ladder specifically. I've distilled down where my skills are and where I want to be in a year, five years, ten years, and then, you just go and do it, and move out to the country, or do whatever it is you need to do.

Michelle: I really love that idea of yours about going for different interviews. A number of years ago I used to work with a lot of people who'd been in a role for quite a while, and I'd say, go and do interviews, particularly of government employees, and even those who've been in private practice, because it gives you that skill set, so you're not a nervous nelly, so to speak, but also, as you're saying, you're getting that feedback on what they're actually looking for now, and looking at what your own skill set is. You walk away going, okay, I may not get that role, but at least I know now, if I want that role, I need to do X, Y, Z, and it's changing, particularly now, it's changing so fast, what are we actually looking for. So it's a great idea. I do a lot of DISC behavioural profiling, I love that when I'm doing my leadership program, and on the last page it always gives you five or six personal questions that you'd use in a candidate role on a panel, and they're so spot on, because it gets you sitting there thinking, if I get asked this question on the spot, how am I going to respond to it. So I think it also gives you a way to sharpen your mind.

Lewis: A hundred percent. Particularly if you're going for things that are a little bit different, or even getting a job in an area that's a little bit different. There was a time when, okay well, this is my first job as a restaurant manager, I've never run a restaurant, I've run bars, so you build your skill set that way. A hundred percent, you get all that feedback, all that information, and it's one of those things you often realise in retrospect. I did a three month stint in recruitment once, not for me, terrible, never would have worked out, more or less got fired, it was a handshake and walk away, they were good people but it just wasn't me. But even that short three month stint working for a hospitality recruitment agency, in this job now I can refer back to that, I know the process, I know what happens with fall-overs internally, I know what percentages I should be looking for, I know the motivations on that side of the thing. So even that one, which was one of my worst ones as far as whether it was successful, I applied, I got the job but I didn't actually apply for it, I went for another job and they said, hey, you can talk, you want to work in recruitment, and you're British. I don't know why they're always British in recruitment, probably because we can talk. Every time you're looking for a job, it's another pommy, which suits me quite well, although it's more Jenny White in my case.

But saying all that, get out of your comfort zone, go and run with it. Particularly as you're getting into that supervisor and management level, those skills are so transferable, at the end of the day it's really all people skills. If you've got the gift of the gab, if you've got a bit of empathy, if you can understand where people are coming from, whether it's members or staff or owners or directors, I think if you've got those people skills, the rest of it is just about getting yourself out there, building yourself up, and doing stuff that's different. Hospitality, you should be having fun, you should be enjoying it. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it sucks for long periods of time, but ultimately you've got to enjoy it, I think.

Michelle: Yeah, definitely, you've got to enjoy what you're doing. And I think hospitality in particular, because there are so many facets to it, we're talking about, here you are in the registered club industry, but there's pubs, there's restaurants, there's hotels, there's so much in this industry. I love what you're saying, you've been on both sides of the fence, getting it from that recruitment side, but also being the glassy, and now being the CEO. I'm sure you can certainly give advice, if you were sitting across from a 22 year old, say, at the moment, they're doing that glassy shift, they're probably thinking, is this really for me, I don't know about this, what's the future like, what would you tell them?

Lewis: Let's have a chat Monday morning, usually, because there's conversation, those are always off-handed ones, but this happens all the time. Honestly, and I'll work around your question a little bit if you don't mind, but I think for me, the most important thing when you're in a senior role is to set up your middle managers and senior managers to be looking for those people, to be listening to those people. It's not about me having a yarn and giving one person a job and training him up myself. It's about, in the first instance, having good human resources work, good incentive systems, good training systems, and budgeting and training your managers so they can identify people who could be particularly skilled at something. That doesn't mean you need to be the next CEO, it could mean you'd make a great dishy, or you might be great out the front as a supervisor, or even down to your grounds keepers and things like that. It's like, well, hang on, you've not only got all these skills and done your TAFE and got your experience, but you're actually really good with people, mate. You're talking about, oh, he's a bit upset about this, and that golfer said this, and you pick up those ancillary skills.

I think it's important that you don't lead anybody on, you get that a lot in hospitality, more in private than in clubs, but you do. You'll get there mate, six months we're going to put you on this, and what I'd say to him is, it's not easy, it's not quick, it takes a lot of hard work, and you've really got to love it, you've really got to love it, those are the people I'm looking for. So if that glassy comes to me, or a bartender or anybody, and says, hey look, I really like this, and it happens all the time, people defer at university, or people who've come in and it's their first job out of school, or maybe they're older and they've done a career change from something, and they come in and go, actually, I really quite like this. The first conversation I have is, alright, well let's have a little yarn and see if you're serious. Some people are just, and again, nothing wrong with this, but if you're focused on I want the money, I want the power, I want the title, I want to come to work in a suit, you're not going to get there. If you come in and say, I love having a chat to the customers in the restaurant, I feel like I get home at two o'clock in the morning and I feel like I really put a good shift in, and you've got that kind of attitude, alright, come and talk to me, let's have a coffee, where do you see yourself, and it becomes kind of like a job interview.

And then the first thing I'll say is, be patient, opportunities don't come up every two minutes, particularly regionally, there's not a lot of options. If you're in Sydney or Melbourne, or any one of those big towns, I mean it's the same here, but you just have to be willing to move, that's something they have to think about when they're young. But if you've got those opportunities and you're in a big city and you've got a lot of options, or if you're willing to move and you're willing to work hard and you do enjoy it, it's like, okay, what's the plan, where do you want to be, let's see how we get you there.

And I think you've got to be looking at staff at every level, and the board should be looking at me like this too, I want to get you up to the point that you are the absolute best you can be for us, and then after that point, we're developing you to do your boss's job, or something bigger, something better, something different. You go through these phases and levels, and it might be through a management structure or whatever, and when you get to the end of one of those little journeys, one of those little levels, I don't want to hold anybody back, I don't want to keep them down. I want to say, right, I can promote you here, I can use you there, I can give you a day a week doing this, or we can give you some external training, or you can sit with me or another manager and shadow them, and ultimately, if I haven't got space for you in a more senior position, I want you to go somewhere else, go and get that job and get that progression somewhere else. That's probably what I'll say to him.

Michelle: And there were two things that came from that I really enjoyed hearing, Lewis. One is the fact that the person's actually got to ask for it. I think too often I see really good staff who could certainly be on that career path, but they're waiting to be asked, would you like this job, and I've always said, you've got to ask, your CEO or your P&C person, they can't read your mind. So go in and say, this is what I'm doing, this course, so I'd like to do this, or I want to get there, tell them what your dreams are, what your goals are, and then, as you said, they can guide you on that path. And they may not have a role for you straight away, but it's at least acknowledging, okay, I know that Fred or Mary are certainly interested, so then I can give them that extra day or that project, and get them to see, do they really like it, and how can I work with them to do it.

Which is fantastic, because too often I think people are just waiting for the job to come up, or waiting to be asked, and you think you've got to put your foot forward, because sometimes it's a job the boss hasn't even thought of that you could possibly do.

Lewis: And I think, this is not a business where, if you want to get ahead, you can be timid. I think you're going to butt heads with your bosses, my entire career, I've had some great ones, I've had some bad ones, but my entire career is butting up against people who are above me. And if you're a good manager, that's what you want, you want people pushing for the business, for themselves, because it's better for everybody. And I think there's something you don't realise, something you couldn't possibly understand when you're in that growth period of your career, and that's how time poor senior managers are. It's going to sound horrible, but the amount of time, I've got about 110 on the books and about 40 contractors, imagine if I spent 10 minutes a day thinking about each one of those people, that's not possible, we can't manage on that individual level at this level, there's a system, and you're not going to get noticed if you don't make yourself stand out. I want to double down on that, it's my job, and it's my managers' job, to be keeping an eye out for those people, and when they do put their hand up, or go the extra mile, we're picking them up, because not everybody has the confidence, especially the young ones, to go and say, hey, I think you're wrong, or I think we should do this. But when we do get those people speaking up, or when they have good ideas, you train them up, you build them up, you empower them, and you try to build those relationships through your organisation, you try to build that structure, so they've got those pathways and opportunities. And it starts with incentives, it starts with good communication. All my supervisors, they do it in their own little clubs, but we've got a good sup team here, they have a weekly supervisor meeting where they go over everything top to bottom, any good ideas, any major issues with the venue managers, I'll get to probably one in every three or four if I can, sometimes I don't go for a couple of months, but I always read the reports and follow up if there's something interesting. It's about letting people feel heard, and recognising where you can.

But my advice is, clubs can be good for that, you're not going to get that in a busy city pub, you're not going to get that if you work in a mini bar at a hotel. So you really need to make yourself stand out, and the way to do that is by doing really good work, but also not biting your tongue, not sitting back, not letting things go. I think being a thorn in people's sides, if you come in with solutions, can be a really good thing. Maybe a little cynical, but certainly from my experience, you have to realise when you're just talking to a brick wall, and it's horrible, because on the one hand you've got to be patient, you've got to work hard, you've got to sit there, and it's not going to happen overnight. But if you're in a business and you feel like you're a top performer and doing well, and that you're a prospect, and you're not being heard and you're not being seen, you need to go, because somebody else will want you, somebody else will get you there. And that's something I think we struggle with as an industry, wider industry, we're losing people to shinier, easier, maybe better paying careers at that less senior end, and it's really hurting us as an industry, at this level, and at those middle management levels, we don't have them, because there hasn't been a pipeline for those people.

Michelle: And that's a great segue, because that's what I want to ask you about. We've lost a lot of that middle management coming out of Covid, you can't blame them, we were the first to close, last to open, and so they went to health, they went to government, they went anywhere but hospitality. So we lost this great little nursery school of budding senior managers, and then we lost them. So you're out there at Young, it's regional, we're finding it tough enough here in the city, trying Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne, trying to get those duty managers and supervisors. How do you find it out there in Young, and what are your thoughts about developing from within, which, yes, it does take that time, but if you've got the time and you've got the right person, is it worth doing?

Lewis: Of course, yes. It's not just worth doing, it's necessary, it's essential. Here's that word lucky again, it's all luck. Well, not all luck, it's making sure you do your homework, particularly when you get to the venue manager upwards level, when the buck stops with you, you really have to do your homework. You're interviewing the venue and the board, whoever the owner or stakeholders or directors are, wherever you are, you're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. So I've been very lucky, I've put myself in a good place. I'll name drop occasionally, so Dean Cave was the CEO here, a very different kind of manager to me, he'd been here 20 something years, and one of the things he'd done so well was build a structure and build a team of good people. Not good managers, not hard workers, although they are hard workers, but a team of good people who are good communicators, get along with each other, aren't too highly strung, enjoy their work, and created a really good work atmosphere across the group. So we've got people, many who have been here 10, sometimes 20 years, and those people are still growing and developing, doing great work. It is that long term game.

I've been on the complete opposite, probably one of the things I've specialised in is coming into places where the culture was bad, or the money wasn't there, or things weren't going well, and turning those around. It's all people, we're in the people business. So, regionally especially, with the turnover you get and the retention you have in hospitality, by the nature of it you've really got to work extra hard.

I think there's also a bit of a cognitive dissonance with some of the more old school managers as to what young people want, particularly this latest, let's call it post-Covid, generation. How to motivate and enthuse them, bring them into the fold, because you're going to have very different life experiences, even me here, pushing 40, compared to somebody who's 18, 19, 20, it's going to be a really different environment as far as work and life and the world than the one I was in. It's a line you've got to walk, between giving them a reality check, which I think probably more of the old school managers would be good at, but then also keeping them interested, giving them, almost sometimes, drip feeding and hand holding, not ignoring them while they go through that slow path, and giving them the straight dope, that the grass is always greener, if you can go and get a good opportunity, great, we want to get you there, but let's not just think about two dollars an hour more, let's not just think about knocking off at 4:30 Monday to Friday, let's think about where you want to be in five years, ten years, because if you've got the personality and you've got half a brain, you can be in this chair in five, ten years, depending on where you are, from almost nothing.

Michelle: I think that's the difference, it's that nurturing them from within, but giving them those opportunities early on, because nobody's going to wait around until Fred or Mary fall off the perch, that ten year business has been gone a long time now. We need to grasp onto these Gen Zs, because they'll move on really quick if they think there's no opportunities for them here, or they can't see any movement. They don't actually communicate it, they'll just go somewhere else because there'll be that shiny ball.

So, to me, from what I can hear you saying, Lewis, is you're having these conversations, or your managers are the spotters, they're really ensuring that, okay, somebody's got a spark there, let's ignite that spark and give them that conversation, and then that's when they will stay, because the biggest thing we're finding now, and we had a demographer at the conference a few days ago, was that young people aren't moving from job to job as much as we assume, because they're not moving because of where they need to live. I know with a lot of regional clubs that I work with, they've had this issue where they've brought staff in but they've got no accommodation. So it's working out, okay, if you've got somebody in that local area who already lives there, or they found a spot there, and they're keen, then how do we nurture them, how do we keep them there, how do we keep that flame ignited?

Lewis: I think it's funny, because you can have a casual conversation, say, here's the ten things you need to do, or here are the key points, but it really all starts with having a proper understanding of human resources. I hate to use it, it's a very dull word and it's got a huge stigma around it, but looking at it from my perspective, in the first instance, it's dollar spent. In the long term, how much do I care about retention depends on the kind of venue I'm in, depends where I am regionally. I care a hell of a lot about retention, I want those good people to stay, I want them to be developed, I don't want them jumping ship for a little bit more money or whatever.

So in the first instance, I think you've got to look at your business overall. I think something clubs do somewhat well, sometimes for the wrong reasons, is they're happy to pay more than private hospitality, because it's such a low barrier of entry in the first instance, and there's a tendency more in private hospitality to look for the cheapest workers, the lowest hours, the best wage cost, and you can sit at a 20% wage cost and be laughing all the way to the bank if you're an owner. But if you're in my position, or looking to have long term growth in your business, particularly your team, then first things first, you need to pay them. That might look very different at casual versus full time versus manager level, but I want to make this the best option for you, if I want to keep you here. And if that means I've got to give you more money, I'm going to give you more money, if it means I need to train and develop you, and you want that, that's what I'm going to do.

We get so many, back in the old days it would have been quid pro quo, these days we get conferences and events and tickets to the footy, there are cost effective ways of developing your team. We got six State of Origin tickets through a brewery once, they wanted us to sit in a box and have a yarn and sell more beer, it's all sales, okay cool, I'll send a manager and I'll send five staff, you guys go and have a great time. We've got a budget for training and development, we spend all this money, send somebody on a course, go learn HR, or catering for non-catering managers through the CMA or whatever else. Take some of that budget, some of that money, and use it to enthuse your people, use it so it goes so far. It could even be as simple as, you've got to do the little things, like for our Christmas party, I don't get to see a lot of my staff most weeks, most months, it's me and the directors pulling the beers for the Christmas party, this is my time to have a few hours where you've got a couple of drinks in you and I've got none, and we might have a little chat, and you might say what you really think, and you might say, oh look, yeah, I don't think I'm loving this, or I really think I want to do this. Using those small periods of time you might have with people effectively.

And I guess the other one is yourself and your managers being approachable about these things. If you put up that brick wall, or you don't have the time, if you get that dishy who says, I need you, I want to talk to you, you might not have time now, but give him half an hour, have a coffee, or 15 minutes even, or come back the next day, and it will pay off tenfold over time.

Michelle: Yeah, definitely, and it's just encouraging them and giving them that ear, at least of being heard, that's what's important. I know some of the clubs I work with, who've got gyms, everybody goes, oh, they just want more money, but the gym pass is really good, a lot of them have taken that up, or those different events they can go to, or even developing their own professional development, and they get an opportunity to meet others outside, like we were saying, coming down for a conference, you bring some staff down, they get an opportunity to meet other people in our industry, but also see what's on the floor. It's networking, but in a gentle way, you're not there to sell, you're there just to meet people.

Let me ask you, you're down at Young Services Club, and it's grown considerably, because I want my listeners to hear a little bit about that. You're acquiring the golf club and the Sporties Bowling Club, when you look at what the club now offers this community, from Happy Soul Bistro to the bowling greens to the Federation Motor Inn, what's the vision driving all of that, Lewis? Because we speak a lot about community in our clubs and what we do for that, so I'd love to hear your vision, yours and the board's, because you've done a lot in a very short period of time.

Lewis: Well, first things first, not too much credit please, this is a business that's been built over decades and decades and decades. I think that's something you've got to recognise, in the first instance, because there are so many regional clubs that have fallen over, there are towns that don't have a club anymore, it's not an easy place to be in any way, shape or form. So I think the first thing is to give credit to those who are here now who've done such a good job, the directors and the members in the town itself, for supporting the club for 70 plus years.

So as far as what's the vision, what's the direction, what's the ethos of the group overall, yes we've got the bowls club, we've got a motel, we've got a golf club, and they're all pretty good sizes, and then we've got the big beast that I'm in here, right in the middle of town, that's sort of the heartbeat. And you come into somewhere like this fresh, as a blow-in, and I think the most important thing, and I will answer your question, I'm terrible but I will, is not to come in too hard. You've got to listen, you've got to listen and figure out what that vision is, what are we here for. Firstly, it goes back to the Clubs Act, what's the reason clubs exist, it's to support community groups in whatever way, such a broad sphere, whether that's veterans, or surf life saving, or the trotting club, whatever it is, that's why we're here, that's why we get the tax breaks on the poker machines and all that kind of stuff.

So on the one hand, I think you've got the point of the wider industry of hospitality, but the answer there is, our purpose is to show people a good time, we're in the people business, we're in the fun business, we want to give good product, good service, good atmosphere, we want people to leave smiling. That goes without saying, that's everywhere, whether it's a hotel or a club or a pub or whatever.

Then, I normally do strategic planning once a year, and a big adjustment every five years, or in a new role I've done two full day strategic planning sessions since I've been here, and in the first instance, I'm listening to the board and I'm listening to the members, and I'm absorbing, in that first year, what do people use the club for, what do people care about in the club, do they care about it. You can have very different membership bases depending on where you are and what they care about. I'm lucky here, in that this is a really important part of the town, and even the wider region, and people really do care about it, there's not a lot of other options, there are a couple of good pubs around the area, but as far as somewhere to come and relax, bring the family, we've got a fantastic golf course, to do these things people love doing, they don't have a lot of other options. So you've got to understand how important you are in being a community space, in supporting those community groups, in being somewhere people can just come and relax with their family, or have a bit of socialisation, it's more important than ever.

And I think you have to take that vision and that drive from your membership, through your directors and through your staff, they're the ones interacting with everybody on a daily basis, and you've got to try and coalesce all that. And then you go into, okay, community, sports, sustainability, your strat plan, what are those important things, and you get down into how do we break that down into measurable and achievable goals, how do we be a data driven manager, everybody loves that at the moment, how do we turn that into something that's quantifiable, measurable, and on which we can assess our performance and adjust as we move forward, because things change a lot. Think about how important food is now versus 20 years ago, think about the compliance landscape we've got now compared to so many years ago. It's easy to put your own plans and your own thoughts in place, and there should be an element of that, but definitely regionally it would be very different if I was talking about a city club, regionally you need to listen, you need to take all that on board.

But you're there, I think, to facilitate, and there was a manager, I can't remember which one, who told me once, we're custodians, that's what our job is, we're a custodian of a club. It's been here 70 or 100 or god knows how many years before you got there, and you might be there five, ten years, if you're there longer than that you're either doing a very good job, or you're sitting on your bum waiting for retirement, one of the two. You need to take the skills you've got and the experience you've built, and come in and not be afraid to make changes, not be afraid to do what needs doing, but all with that overarching strategy and that overarching set of goals, however you do it, in your own strategic planning, in mind.

And I think there's a huge gap here between private, or profit, and not-for-profit, let's say. If you work for an owner and that's their money, and I've been in this position more often than not, your focus as a venue manager or CEO, or if you're a chef and you've got to roster people, is going to be on numbers and percentages, how many schnitzels did I sell, what's my gaming spend, all those hard data type things, and you have to be able to marry that up with the softer side, those more nebulous goals and targets. I think it's difficult for boards, especially when they don't necessarily have that deeper understanding, you pull out a spreadsheet or accounting, tax, what should a wage cost be, you have to take that overall, what do we want, what are we here for, and say, okay, well in the broadest possible sense, here's how we achieve that, it's your job to say, okay, well if we want to be the absolute best service, and it's a lot more complicated over a period of time, and it's about managing your board, sometimes managing your owners, sometimes it's, okay, well you want me to achieve this, here's how we're going to go about it, and often it comes down to educating that.

My experience in that regard goes from somewhere like here, where I've got some really experienced people on the board as far as their own businesses go, to some, and I've had this the last couple of times regionally, where I might have a grazier, running a hundred sheep at once and coming to a board meeting, and he's been drinking here since he turned 18, or maybe a little bit longer, his dad was here, his granddad was here, and that's a good person to listen to, but he might not be the guy you're going to talk to about, well, CPI was this, we're expecting our wages to be this. So on the one hand you've got to translate from them into what can be planned, what's actionable, what's measurable, and then the other way you've got to go, okay, well you need to understand a certain amount, it's heavily governance and compliance, but you need to understand a certain amount of business.

I really feel, at this stage, and you could go down two or three sizes of club here, as far as what's needed in a senior manager, CEO, GM, secretary manager, is that ability to be completely in charge, completely in control of the operations, of the financials, and you need that relationship in clubs with your board that is one of trust. So we do the strat planning, I listen to everything you've got to say, I give you feedback, if you're a good manager, if you're a good CEO, and you do your homework and you're not full of it, you can tell your board pretty well what the next two, three, four, six months is going to look like, with a pretty good level of accuracy. We think about assessing risk, financial risk, investment risk, how we're managing this, ten, twenty, thirty, fifty, in some cases as you go higher, five hundred plus million dollars, that's the huge part of it, and that's a massive responsibility. But if you get too bogged down on that, and that's what you're talking about with your board all the time, you're not going to achieve what you really need to achieve, and you've just got to go, okay, well here are the targets, here's where we're tracking, we're going to be between this and this, and here's the strategy, and if it goes a little bit off, this is what we're going to do, we need contingencies, we need to plan, and you need to make them feel like they don't have to worry, you're in control, you've got it all, and generally you are, and you're a few steps ahead, and when you're not, and it, I'm not going to swear, what's the polite way of saying when it hits the fan...

Michelle: Yes, exactly, that'll be fine.

Lewis: It's that you remain calm and you stay in control, and that you're not panicking, and that you've got resources, whether it's Clubs NSW or Pigott Stinson, there you go, have a couple of name drops, free advertisement, or whether it's another club manager you trust. I still have mentors, I still have good mentors, even at this stage of my career, people I can reach out to who can help me in those situations, sometimes my junior managers as well, more often than not they're the ones I get their opinion from first. And you just take all that accountability and responsibility, you've got to wear it, you've got to be good under pressure, and you've got to make sure they never feel like it's not under control, because that's where they perform best, that's where you get the most out of them.

Michelle: We probably moved into the last question but it was important, and I'm really thankful for you sharing that, Lewis, because I'm sure there are a lot of listeners out there who are either on that career path, or moving up into becoming a venue manager, or a COO, or have been a CEO for a long time. Our whole boards are shifting too, they've gone from those who've been part of the venue for a long time, into, let's look at who we need on the board, in addition to them, who's got a certain skill set that we need, that we can bring into the organisation. And having that beautiful blend, it really works well in a club, because you do need the people who are part of that community and have been there for a long time, because they see things differently from somebody coming from that very strong financial background, for instance.

Lewis: Yeah, it does, a hundred percent. And it's not our job to recruit a board, we can't do that, but we can certainly identify those areas, in governance meetings and things like that, where I'm going, are we eight blokes around here, that's not very good, is it, we're missing out half the population. And it might be great to have one farmer, but if we're eight farmers, okay, maybe we need the real estate agent, or maybe we need whoever, and to go out and talk to people, and encourage them, your board members, it's natural that people step down, every director I've ever met over the age of 50 says, this is my last year. You know how they are, well great, well who's coming in for you, mate, then. I want you to be having those conversations and trying to make sure we've got that strength at that level. Sometimes you're stuck with who you're stuck with, but I think we're getting better at that. I think Clubs NSW is doing some good stuff with the AICD at the moment, I think we've fallen behind there compared to most industries over the last decade or two, governance is overrunning us, and that longer term planning and education we need now, we're kind of overwhelmed. So it's about managing that whole thing from underneath, but it's good to see that being developed by industry bodies and things like that.

Michelle: And definitely, because it's there to support them, because it's a lot of responsibility that they take on their shoulders.

Lewis, I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. Before we finish up, is there something I haven't asked you that you'd like to share with our listeners, about the hospitality industry, and why they should get into it and stay in it?

Lewis: I think, probably, if I can, two quick things. So the first one, why hospitality, why stay in it, because it's fun, because it's people. It is hard at times, it is really hard at times, I've worked 70, 80, 100 hour weeks, I've done 14 days of 14 hours working in a freaking kitchen, pop ups and this and that, and it is really, really hard. And if you find yourself going back in on a Wednesday at 5pm after a massive weekend, and your bones are aching and your feet are aching, and you've got a shift in front of you, and you still want to be there, you're the people, you're the person. It's hard work, you've got to enjoy it, but don't burn yourself out, but if you feel fulfilled when you finish, cleaning the floor mats at 2 in the morning, and you go home and you go, yeah, that was good, you're the people, and make yourself known, do you know what I mean, if you make yourself known and you work hard, you will be recognised, because there's not enough of you.

And I think the other thing, this is something I'd like to talk to you about a lot more, is that private versus non-profit, clubs versus pubs, that kind of thing. I think there's a huge divide mentally at that top level, at our level, at consultant level, CEO level, board level, owner level, thinking that we're different things. I'd just like to say, essentially, to those people, whether they're more on the club side of things, to be honest with you, there is a massive pool of skill and talent out there that will not look at you because you're old, you're fuddy-duddy, you're out of touch, and you don't make it fun, and you don't enthuse them, and you don't hear them. And I think we're hurting ourselves, on the club side of things, by not taking someone who's a bit more rough around the edges, or who's been in dive bars or pubs, we've got to drop that, like, yesterday. We need to be looking at everybody, we need to be looking at wider hospitality, I don't care if you come from a cruise ship or a catering company or whatever, the skills are the same, up until you get to the very top, the skills are the same, they're transferable, and it's about people, it's about being good with people. Find good people wherever they come from, and you will do well. That's probably the only other thing I'd like to say, we're not as special as we think we are, in the club industry, we're all made of the same stuff, we're all doing the same job. So don't think of yourself as a club manager, think of yourself as a hospitality manager, think of yourself as a people manager, and you'll find things a lot easier.

Michelle: And you'll attract more, because there'll be people who'll be interested, going, wow, this person has got a really open mindset, and what they're offering, and what they're saying and talking about, and the vision they have, will encourage others to have those interviews and get on board and create a beautiful career like you have. And go outside of the city areas, go out to the regions, there are massive clubs, and particularly if you're part of that community, you're not just at a club in the city, then you go home to a different suburb, you're part of that community, which is so important out there in the country.

Lewis: I will let you go, I know we're over time, but exactly what you just said, I think there's something you really need to put a fine point on, and that's for those young people, or those people who are maybe on the way, there is, the payoff is fantastic, in so many ways. Salaries are great, people often don't like to talk about them, but even from venue manager level upwards, particularly on the club side of things, but also in general hospitality, as you get up and over those hurdles, the payoff does come, you can make a really, really good life in this industry, but it does take a bit longer than some others.

I think also, on the regional side of things, to put a really fine point on it, if I were doing this job in the city, let's say I was on the same salary, in a similar sized club, it wouldn't be like that. But just for comparison's sake, I'd probably be looking at somewhere like I used to live previously, a not-too-flash new build apartment on Canterbury Road, that's going to cost me about a million bucks, and I'm going to be up to the eyeballs in debt. For the same price, coming regionally, I'm about to buy a 115 acre farm. So if that doesn't get you, the cost of living, the lifestyle, talk about work life balance in the city, oh my god, coming out here and being able to go on a short drive and be in the mountains, through the farms, all this beautiful, picturesque, lovely, relaxing, open sky, that's got to be worth 100 grand a year, surely.

So, if you're working yourself to death in the city, and you think you want to make a tree change, do it, or go to the beach, go up the coast, do that, I strongly encourage people to do that, because we need them out here, and the money is still good, and everything else is, well, what do you miss out on, Uber Eats, fine, learn to cook.

Michelle: Lifestyle in the country certainly suits you, Lewis. I thank you so much for your time. As I said, I'm sure we could continue this conversation, and I'll look forward to having you back on, at another time, to discuss further the building of the club, and just your insights, because I've really enjoyed hearing about them, particularly being from England, coming to Australia, doing all those hard yards in the city, and then going out to these regional areas, and, as you said, it's about getting the younger ones encouraged and enthused into this industry, the broader hospitality industry, and then, of course, into our beautiful registered club industry, because there are so many opportunities.

Lewis: You're dead right.

Michelle: Alright, thank you so much.

Lewis: Thank you, it's a pleasure. Bye, see you next time.

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