Hospitality Leadership: Why Working Harder Isn't the Answer

TRANSCRIPT: Hospitality Leadership - Why Working Harder Isn't the Answer

The Michelle Pascoe Hospitality Podcast

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Michelle Pascoe: Welcome everyone to today's podcast. I've just been having a chat to this lovely lady on the other side of the world, in the beautiful county of Leicestershire in the UK, comparing our weather notes at this point in time and having a bit of a giggle. Because it doesn't matter where we are in the world, we all complain about the weather, whether it's hot or cold. So I know we're certainly going to enjoy this conversation. Let me introduce you to Cassie Davison. She's a hospitality leader, the author of Stand Out Hospitality, a business coach, and the founder of Kith & Kin, a movement for independent hospitality operators and their wider community. With over thirty years in the industry, Cassie has built, grown and led award-winning pubs, cafes, fine dining restaurants and even festivals from the ground up. She's known for combining real-world experience with strategic insight, helping hospitality leaders reconnect with their purpose, lead with clarity, and build businesses that actually thrive. Cassie holds an MBA and has earned over twenty-five business and hospitality industry awards, but her greatest accolade is having stood exactly where her readers stand — on the floor and in the back office, in the thick of it, and we all know what that's like. Her approach is direct, grounded and rooted in lived experience, designed to help owners grow their business without losing sight of themselves. Welcome, Cassie, it's so wonderful to have you on my podcast.

Cassie Davison: Thank you so much for having me. It's an absolute pleasure. I'm really looking forward to this conversation, and I love your background there — you've got the lovely little fairy lights, it's nice and bright, it's fantastic.

Michelle Pascoe: Yes, so Stand Out Hospitality, that's what it's all about. You've been in this world for a very similar time to me, that thirty years in the industry, and you've built, as you said, pubs and cafes and fine dining restaurants and even festivals. At what point did you actually realise that working harder wasn't the answer, and what shifted in you to get to where you are now? Talk about starting with the difficult parts, ask a hard question, why don't I.

Cassie Davison: I think it's a really difficult question to answer, because I think the reality is I'm not sure whether I ever did, or whether any of us in the industry ever really work that out — that working harder, because we're all driven to work really hard. I always say hospitality is always in crisis, and I don't say that glibly. For some people that is absolutely awful, and it's very personal, but actually as an industry there's always something going on. When you're running your business, for some of us that's part of what attracted us to this industry in the first place. We like that constant problem solving, that no two days are the same, that there's a little bit of chaos, you're always a little bit on the edge — what's going to happen next, what's going to happen today. You go into every single day with these grand plans, right, today I'm going to do this, this and this, and then you walk in and someone's forgotten to order lemons, or the toilet's blocked, or the till's no longer talking to the kitchen printer, or some other chaotic thing. I've yet to meet anybody who doesn't secretly quite love that. But the issue is when it tips over, when it becomes too much, and that's why I think a lot of people in the industry are very prone to burnout — because we're always operating right at that edge, and we tend not to allow ourselves the additional capacity we need for life to happen as well. It's all very well going to work and operating at that level, being constantly busy, constantly creative, constantly innovative, but life is going to happen too. I've been doing this for thirty years, twenty-five years of setting up and running my own businesses, and I'm not going to pretend every single business went well. It didn't. There have been terrible, awful things — cash flow problems, an interruption of business because of flooding, the crash of 2007 — all the stuff that happens in business. But also in your personal life. I've got four children, and trying to have four children and build businesses is hard enough, but then my mum died suddenly, and you need to have the capacity to deal with what happens in your life as well. I think too often we don't allow that capacity, because we're operating at these really high levels. For me, over that time, I genuinely burnt out massively, crashed and had to start again, and every single time I start again with a new attitude — okay, I need to do this differently. You start with good intentions and build the business differently. When I first started my first business I was literally working every single hour. I was only twenty-three, so full of naive young energy — I was working seven days a week doing everything. By the time I got to my last venue, I was trying to structure it much more like I am running the business and other people are doing the physical work, as opposed to it being me. I think, realistically, in answer to your question, I'm not sure I've ever got to the point of actually learning to do it, but I do think it's an ongoing thing now — I know that I need to create that space, I know I need to retain that capacity. Certainly when I wrote the book, that's really what it's about. It's about demonstrating that this is a very complex business in almost every case, but it can be simpler, and there are some key principles to hold on to. If you can hold on to those principles, you can make the business simpler and more sustainable, and importantly protect yourself and your own energy.

Michelle Pascoe: And you're so right, I think we have these different seasons in our lives, and it would be wonderful to put that old head on those young shoulders at twenty-three and say, I know you want to do all the thousand and one things, but let's put some systems in place, let's put some procedures and actually write them down, so we don't find ourselves ten years later saying the same thing to another group of people. People tell us to do that and we go, oh yeah, it'll be right, I'll just do it quicker, I'll get to it. Each time you've restarted the business or gone into a new venture, it's taking what you've learnt before. I don't think they're mistakes, I think they're opportunities we can honestly learn from. But you're right, we've got to allow ourselves to take that moment and that space for our own mental health. When we look back thirty years ago, nobody talked about mental health, and really nobody talked about it much even a few years ago. Like you, the catalyst for starting my business was that I lost my mum, and then I lost my dad during the business. At that time I had spent a phenomenal amount of money to launch the second part — I'd got quite a large research business, and I'd bought this software, spent tens of thousands of dollars on it, and had this big expo, a lovely exhibition, and my dad literally passed away two days before it. I tried to get there and I just couldn't do it. I had to sit in that place and think, I may have lost money, but I needed to take that time, because I didn't take it with my mum, and I think I learnt from that. It's very easy for old heads to say, well, this is what you need to do, but to have that sustainability for yourself and your own mental health, you've got to take that bit of a break. So here you are, thirty years on, you've created all these wonderful things, and we're going to talk a lot more about that, but talking about reconnecting with purpose at that starting point is so important for the operator who's writing rosters at midnight — I think rosters are the worst thing you could possibly do, I shouldn't say that, but every time I see a team member and they say, I do the rosters, I go, lucky you, you'll have friends today and enemies tomorrow — and they genuinely can't remember why they started in the industry. What's that very first thing you think they should do, what would be a tip for them?

Cassie Davison: I'll tell you — read my book. We'll put a link in the show notes. No, but actually, I say hospitality is always in crisis, and it's very easy to get wrapped up in that and lose yourself in the noise of the industry, the must-dos, the trying to prove yourself. I think it's absolutely essential to remember why it's important, so my book starts firstly with why the industry is important generally. I think hospitality might be one of the oldest industries there is — as soon as there were groups of people coming together, there was somebody creating a space and selling food and drink and saying, sit here and relax, and that's what hospitality is all about — the fact that hospitality has always existed, has always been important to people. Not just for selling food and drink, but for the wider thing the hospitality industry provides for us as humans. Beyond that, I talk in the book about my own story, how I fell in love with hospitality. I won't give you the full thing, you can read the book for that, but I think I fell in love with hospitality when I was about nine years old. I had a lovely childhood, my parents had quite a nice, easy life, but they went out to work all day long doing their busy, important jobs, and then they'd come home to three girls who were refusing to eat their dinner, refusing to tidy their rooms, refusing to go to bed, and my poor parents were stressed and harassed, as parents are. But on the weekend we'd all go out to the pub, and they'd spend time with their group of friends — back in the days when kids weren't really allowed in pubs, so we were handed a bottle of fizzy pop and a packet of crisps and sent off to play. But that's not the bit I remember. The bit I really remember is watching the transformation of my parents, watching them move from these harassed, stressed adults into these relaxed people who were with their friends, with people who knew them, who accepted them exactly as they are. They laughed and joked and celebrated, and there were lots of arguments, as they put the world to rights. I just thought, oh my goodness, this is the magic of hospitality — these places, and watching people deliver that, the service, the act of service for the people running pubs and bars and restaurants. It is an act of service. I think there are three things that really attract people to the industry, because everybody has a story as to that moment they went, I love hospitality. For some people like me, it's that witnessing service, seeing it as an act of service. The other thing is that when people first start in the industry, they start as a pot washer, a glass washer, a glass collector, considered the lowest of the low — but the second you walk in, you are essential to that business, and you are valued, because everybody in this industry knows that if the pot washer's no good, the whole business falls apart, we're not going to be able to serve customers. That person is essential. You come in with no experience, you don't know what you're doing, but you are essential to that team, and you are respected instantly. So you get people who come in and feel valuable, and for some of them that's the first time they've ever felt valuable. And of course, how many stories are there of people who started as a pot washer and end up running their own places, or head chef somewhere really amazing. So you've got those two elements, and then, as I've said, a lot of us are attracted to the chaos and the problem solving and the creativity and innovation. Between the three, all of us have stories as to why we fell in love with the industry and why it matters to us. My specialist area is the owner, the owner-operators, the independents, the people who set up their own places, and for them there's also that exciting moment when they decided they were going to do it. Yes, it gets worn down, and yes, over time you think, my goodness, what am I doing, this is a huge mistake — but if you can remember that moment, that's why you're getting up in the morning and carrying on doing this job. It's so essential, because if we can remember that, that's the key to everything else. It shouldn't be forgotten, it's not unimportant, it's essential to what you're doing.

Michelle Pascoe: I couldn't agree more, and I think that first point you made, seeing that transformation in your parents — you know, your club or your pub is an extension of your living room, isn't it. For them, it's like coming home, they go in and they're not being judged, they can be themselves, they can have a cry, they can have a laugh, they can just sit in quietness but still be surrounded by people. I think it's just as important — our patrons, our customers, get the joy from coming to our venues, but I think it's just as important that our teams get the joy too, whether it's their first day or they've been in it for years, the joy when they see that customer who always makes them laugh, or think, oh here they go, what a silly thing they're going to do this week. It's that beautiful, mutual connection they have, that each of them gives the other joy — I think that's what's really cool.

Cassie Davison: No, absolutely. My career, I've worked in fine dining as well, I had my own fine dining restaurant, and in that environment the relationship isn't quite the same as a pub or a cafe, you've got a bit more distance, but the feeling's still the same — you still know the impact you're having on that customer. Every single customer is there for a reason, every single occasion any customer comes into a pub, bar, restaurant, whatever, is a special occasion, because if it was just about food and drink, they could get that from the supermarket and cook it for themselves at home. So every single time they walk into a venue, it's important, they're there for a reason. When you work in those environments, you can feel that, and you can see the impact you're having on people.

Michelle Pascoe: It's really important, but it's too easy to forget, and too easy to get lost in it — because everybody's complaining, like we spoke about earlier with the weather, everyone's got something to say, and there's a lack of tolerance, that's what we seem to find globally now, our customers complain more, or whatever it is. But you made that point about the pot washer — they may feel, or their family and friends may have said to them, oh, you're only the pot washer, you couldn't get any lower than that — but to me it's that first point of the leader, the owner, the manager, who says, you know what, you are the absolute key point, because you can be in a fine dining restaurant, but if you pick up that fork and it's got yesterday's egg on it, that's it, not coming back, not even eating it, doesn't matter how much or how little you're paying for your meal, I'm out of here. I had a chap a number of years ago, one of the youngest CEOs in our registered club industry, and his first day at work was sharpening the keno pencils, like bingo pencils, and his grandad had said to him, for every pencil you sharpen, make sure it's got a good piece of lead on it. Somebody could have thought, what a boring job — but what it meant was every time somebody saw that pencil, they could tick their numbers and got the opportunity to win, they weren't missing out because they didn't have a pencil. It's those tiny things that everybody makes up in hospitality, doesn't matter where you are, you can't do the whole thing without everybody being part of it, that's what's beautiful about it.

Cassie Davison: A hundred percent, and as you say, that pot washer role is such a good example, because it's the customers, but it's also the chefs — if you're in a really good quality restaurant with a brigade of chefs, they're running out of pans, they need someone to keep on top of the pans, and if they haven't got a clean pan to cook with, everything stops. So it's essential, and people come into this industry and feel valued so quickly, and the other thing is, they might start as the lowest of the low, but within two years they can be running the place.

Michelle Pascoe: That's right, because the route in this industry to that is so quick, and it's taking pride, even though people may have said it's the lowest of the low, taking pride in their job, whether they're cleaning the dishes, cleaning the toilets, mucking out the beer kegs, whatever it is — knowing that, and I think that's where it's important for leaders to establish that with them right from that early point, particularly these days, when a lot of them have an expectation that they should be there, but they need to learn the ropes. It's having that encouragement. Now, Stand Out Hospitality and Kith & Kin both feel like they come from a belief that independent hospitality needs its own language and its own community. Where did that conviction come from?

Cassie Davison: I guess twenty-five years of doing it myself, running my own places, setting them up and running them myself, and as you said, over that time I've earned twenty-five awards, from business awards to awards for my places themselves. But in all that time you think you're failing, because you're on your own, and we're all striving for perfection, so we know the faults — I'd walk into a place full of customers who loved it, and I'd be thinking, I'm a bit embarrassed, that needs painting, that needs doing, and you feel like it's not perfect yet, so you haven't achieved yet. I think that's the same across the industry, everyone feels like that, we're a bunch of perfectionists who really want to deliver. When you're doing it, you're extremely alone. I tell the story of when WhatsApp first came about, it was fantastic, we created a WhatsApp group for the whole team so you could share your rosters and what's going on, and you have this WhatsApp group and everyone's really connected. Then I was talking to a member of staff, and they said, oh yeah, I know, it was on the WhatsApp group, and I said, no it wasn't, and they went, oh — and you suddenly realise there's two WhatsApp groups, there's the one I've set up for the team, and then there's the one without me in it. But the reality is that's what it is, running your own places, it's lonely, you're on your own, and you can be absolutely burdened with all the stress — you're trying to achieve perfection, you've got life going on at home, but you come in and have to smile constantly, because you cannot let your team know you're worried, because if you're worried, they're worried, and the whole thing falls apart. So you're very isolated. I think the other element is that the pressure you feel is coming from the noise of the industry about how the industry should be run — in the UK, 99.6 per cent of all hospitality businesses are SMEs, which is amazing, isn't it, that's a huge amount. But you wouldn't know that, because you walk along the high street and it's all chains, and then you go to a conference and it's the CEO of those chains telling you the trends for hospitality, how to manage your culture, your marketing, whatever it is. You come away with advice from chains and CEOs, and think, but actually my reality is different — you go back into your business and someone's forgotten the lemons and the toilet's blocked and the till's not working, and you think, all those grand ideas, I've got to do it myself, I've got to keep a smile on my face, I've got to know what the right decisions are, and it's just lonely and hard. There's a lot to be said for that, but there's an opportunity to say, this independent, this SME side of the industry is different, it's hospitality, but the way it functions is different, and I think its level of importance is greater as well. We spoke about how important hospitality is to humans, it's the places we go to belong and be with other people, but the independence is where we express our personality, because every single one of them has a personality, every single one has its own little quirks. You walk in and they're the places you feel at home — it's not the chains. The chains do consistency really well, you walk in and it's going to be the same everywhere you go across the world, and that's great, but what you get with an independent is that personality, coming from the owner, from the team, from the decor, the choices being made on a daily basis, and those are really important, because that's where people find belonging, that's where they find their tribe of people who are just like them, because we all love this place, so this is our place.

Michelle Pascoe: Yes, it's ours. And thank you, Cassie, for making that point — speaking at conferences for all these years, I know exactly what you're saying, you're sitting there in the audience hearing from the CEO of these large chains, thinking, oh my gosh, that's fantastic, I'd really like to replicate that, but then you get back into the real world. I also feel with those independent businesses there are two things — loneliness is true, everybody wants to be able to talk to somebody, but they don't have the time to join a membership, and where do they go? I think probably now, over the last few years, having Zoom has given people those moments in time, or private coaching, or just somebody they can talk to. The other thing that makes independents different from chains is that for many of them, they'll use local produce — the farmer who only needs to supply ten kilos of potatoes, or one beast a week — but that farmer can then buy something from his local little store, or purchase something from another small business, and that's what makes that beautiful circle when you've got SMEs working together. The other thing I think we get an awful battering from is media — social media is telling us constantly what we have to do, then you get onto the global news networks and they're telling you the economy's in dire straits, the whole world's falling apart, forget about your restaurant. I had my daughter here last night, and I turned on the news for about five minutes, and she said, mum, seriously, turn it off, all I've heard so far is I can't buy a home, I can't do this, I can't. That's what it's like, and I think we need to isolate ourselves — not put a tin hat on, but be with people who go, yeah, look, this is what our industry is about, but let's grow this together, let's be there for each other. It's how we do it, isn't it, that's the biggest thing.

Cassie Davison: Yes, because those SMEs, as you point out, aren't just serving food and drink, they're places where people can go where they know everyone else in the room is like them and shares their values. But as you say, they're way more than that, because every single one that's open, someone did it with absolute passion, and did it because they had an absolute reason — not like those big chains. I won't necessarily be very gentle in what I say, but they're quite often set up because there's an opportunity to make money in this industry, and then they have to go and sit in a boardroom and decide what their purpose is, what their mission is, what their values are, and they all sit around as a committee and decide that. Whereas in an independent, it's in us, we know exactly why we love this, they're our values. We know exactly why we're doing it, and therefore we look after our team so well because we really care, we look after our customers because we really care, and we look after our community, we become social infrastructure — and then we burn out because we try to do too much, but gee, we go down with gusto.

Michelle Pascoe: Values are so important, and we talk about it all the time. My whole company, and I think any SME, our values come from us. When I do leadership training I always say, look at your top values, and they say, oh, these are my values at work or at home — no, this is you. Even when you're a team member, but when you're an SME, it is everything that encompasses you, whereas larger organisations have their credo on the wall or in the staff room with a happy little sign, and that's important — I really do believe you need values, because you can then operate from that space of, well, if you're not working towards our values, or within our values, then it's a great way to discipline somebody, but also a way to congratulate somebody. So values are important, but I think SMEs need to at times share those values with the actual team, to understand — because we're in the doing all the time, we need to step back and say to our team, this is why I started this business, these are my values. What do you think, Cassie?

Cassie Davison: A hundred percent, and I think that's the bit so many operators and owners forget to do. They start doing this with all of this passion, they have it in their head and know why, but they don't really articulate it even properly to themselves, and then forget to articulate it to their teams. Because they're learning, and finding out stuff, and they've got the CEOs telling them how to do this stuff, they believe it and do it that way, and end up putting in place all of these systems and doing it all properly, and then think, why is this not working — and we end up with the conversation of, well, back in my day we all used to work really hard and kill ourselves for this job, and this young generation, they don't know what hard work is. There's a little bit of truth in that, in that we have a younger generation, and the world has changed so dramatically for them compared to when I started, over thirty years ago. Our generation was just work hard and please, somebody notice I'm actually doing a good job, please say well done, and burning out was so common, and when it happened, we'd just say, they're not cut out for this industry — we'd wear this stuff as a badge of honour. Whereas this new generation, and rightly, I'll say absolutely rightly, we're in a world now where they protect themselves the way they know their value, they look after themselves much better, but they have this understanding as well that this is just a transaction — they come to work, do a job, do it well, follow training, do exactly what they're told, get paid for it, go home, and that's the end of it. That's so different to how we operated previously, but they've taught the whole workforce this, which is a good thing. But the thing that changes that is if you can articulate why this matters to you as an owner, why it matters to the customer, why your business matters — then that's your purpose, and then you have a mission, you know what you're trying to deliver. We're not delivering food and drink here, we're delivering a place where somebody walks through the door and feels loved, or a place where they discover new ideas, or whatever it might be, and once that exists, surrounded by the values, what is important to you, to the team, to the customer, those are the values which we will never compromise on — not just something lofty pinned on a wall, but things that actually really matter every single time we open the door. Then your team actually has something to believe in, and being on a mission is intoxicating. We see organisations making a difference in the world and we all think, let's be part of that — and in our small SME hospitality businesses, we can make a difference to our world, and we do. I always talk about my favourite place in the whole world being a cafe five minutes away from me.

Michelle Pascoe: That's a surprise.

Cassie Davison: But my world is small — I've got a small world, so to be the best in the world for your customer is so achievable, because your customer's world is small too, it's what, a twenty-minute radius realistically.

Michelle Pascoe: And I think we don't think that, do we.

Cassie Davison: No, exactly, because we look at social media and start trying to compete globally, we have all these trends coming in from cafes or restaurants that are global, and we're trying to get attention globally, but actually none of it really matters — what matters is that local, those people around you, because to be absolutely full, you don't need however many billion people are in the world at the minute, they're not your customers, and you can't please every single one of them, but you can please yours.

Michelle Pascoe: Yes, and it's identifying who they are. I think you see businesses in tourist destinations who push everything towards the tourist, think everything is absolutely fantastic, and then when it's out of tourist season, the business literally goes, because they've forgotten about the local — the John, the Mary, the Fred, who come in day in, day out — and it's building that feeling of community and belonging, isn't it, that's what's key. So how you do that is about sustainability, which is that big word we hear all the time, and it is that success goal, but for a lot of hospitality people, sustainability can feel like a luxury at times. So what does it actually look like in practice, and how do you get there without gutting the business to get there?

Cassie Davison: I think we've sort of understood sustainability from that environmental, green kind of angle, but I think actually for SMEs, and particularly hospitality SMEs, it's much more fundamental than that. The way I describe it is that everything in the business is influencing everything else, and when you're operating your own business, sustainability is about making sure your business survives. That's the first bit — will your business survive and thrive in the future — and so protecting it is what sustainability is, because it's an important thing, we spoke about it being social infrastructure, important to a community, important beyond that, to the reputation it has, essential to your customers, and to your team, because you're providing income, you're providing jobs. But fundamentally, none of that exists or works unless you look after yourself. So sustainability isn't a lofty idea, it's about understanding that everything in the business is connected, part of a system, and I describe it as you being the pebble in the pond, which spreads out to the team, which then goes to the customers, then to the community, and then to the wider reputation — but that's your energy, that's your passion, that's your purpose, your values, your work ethic, but fundamentally it's your energy, because if you haven't got the energy, if you don't come in with that energy, everyone's feeding off you. So protecting yourself and looking after yourself is not a luxury, it's not selfish, it's absolutely essential to survival. When I'm working with people, I'm very clear that taking a break, making sure you're not overdoing it, not taking on extra stuff, is absolutely essential, because you need to have that capacity, and you need to be able to come in every single day with that additional energy to make all of this work. Protecting yourself is part of your business strategy, and it should absolutely, if you're writing a business strategy, looking after yourself has to be key to it, and from that, that's where sustainability comes from, actually writing it into that business plan — because we think about the marketing and the operations and the service and all of that.

Michelle Pascoe: Talking about being sustainable, looking over your career now, you've had multiple openings of restaurants, cafes and pubs, and twenty-five business awards — it's interesting, as each of those opened, did you think to yourself, I'm going to open and close this in three years, or seven years, or one year? I wonder sometimes if people look and think, oh, I've opened this restaurant, it's got to be for decades — and for some it is, they might be in the right place with the best food, whatever it might be, but for others I think they put so much pressure on themselves as business owners, and don't sometimes realise it's fine to close and move on to the next thing.

Cassie Davison: To be fair, I don't think I ever thought that way. I opened my first business when I was twenty-three, too naive to know any different, it was just, open a place, it'll be great. Life gets in the way of things, doesn't it, and also, as you say, you go through different life stages, what you want from your business changes — what I wanted from my first place, and how it was designed, isn't something I'd operate now, I'd operate a completely different place now. So I don't think, in fairness, I ever thought it's just a temporary thing, I'll just do it for a while. But I do think it's important for people to understand what it is you're trying to achieve, and when have you achieved it — because I watch far too often, and this goes back to the sustainability thing, people will open a place, and really what they're trying to do is open another place, and then open another one. I made that same mistake, I opened places when I shouldn't have. It's fine, when we're talking about purpose, to recognise that actually some of this is your ego. Not many people would admit to that, but you probably should, because if this is about status and ego as well, then let that be part of it, because it's important to recognise that yourself, because then perhaps you can stop yourself making silly mistakes like opening lots of places and finding yourself overstretched and overburdened. Whereas if you can just stick to the one and make it as good as possible — so many times I see somebody with three, four, eight sites, and yet it's the person with just one site who's making more money. Being honest with yourself about why you're opening a new place, because it's rare that you're opening it because you've got a queue out the door of your other place and need more capacity. I think I've closed places because they weren't doing so well, and I've also walked away from places just because I'd grown tired of them, it's not what I want to do anymore, I'll go and do something new. My thing is I really like the setup, the entrepreneurial take — take a derelict building and turn it into something amazing. But I think there's a high risk of people overdoing it, because they're not clear about what it is they're setting out to do, they're not questioning themselves, and they're not acknowledging that it can change, you're allowed to change your mind.

Michelle Pascoe: Yes, and that's where the old saying, pride comes before a fall, happens so often. We've talked about a whole range of things which I've loved the discussion of, but I wanted to touch on before we finish up, festivals — tell us about that part of your business growth.

Cassie Davison: I sort of fell into festivals quite accidentally. There are a couple of festivals I've operated, and each one has been part of a bigger story. The first was a street festival in Leicester, where I'm from — part of my business was in the Cultural Quarter in Leicester, and as part of that, it was an upcoming area, and I was chair of the business association there, and we were trying to work out how to build this area, how to build its reputation. Obviously it's culture, and culture isn't necessarily just art and theatre, it's actually bigger than that, so street art became a really good idea — it took me four years to make it happen, pulling the team together, and we brought in international street artists and had this amazing festival. But as I say, it was accidental, incidental to my business, it was the impact your business can have on your community, so it was much bigger than just my business. I say accidental, but because you're in hospitality, because you understand how these things work, delivering that is reasonably straightforward compared to somebody coming at it from a different angle. Then food festivals as well — this was post-Covid, post-lockdown, and the boom in street food. I had a pub at the time with this big field, and we created a regular food festival, pulling in loads of street food, music, dog shows, that whole summer vibe, come outside, chill and relax, these innovative spaces, supporting all these other little businesses as part of it. I think festivals are really interesting, because people are looking for those interesting new ideas and new things, and festivals satisfy so much, because as a group of people you can go out with different interests or different tastes — food's a good example — you can all be in the same place experiencing something slightly different, even though you're there as a group, but fundamentally you're there for the same reasons as somebody going to a pub or a cafe, you're there to be part of something. So festivals, I think, are quite exciting for that reason.

Michelle Pascoe: I love it, it's just a little bit of a different take on what you do — that formal restaurant, getting outside, that summer vibe, having fun, bringing people from all different walks of life who can get there and mingle and enjoy and have some fun. Before we finish up, there are two questions — I'd like you to share perhaps something I haven't asked you about your business, or a tip you'd like to give my listeners, but also, how can we learn a little bit more about you, and we'll put your links in the show notes. I'd love you to share with my audience about Stand Out Hospitality, where they can purchase it, and how they can connect with you, Cassie.

Cassie Davison: So the book, Stand Out Hospitality, is available, as you like to say, in all good bookshops, but certainly I know it's available on Amazon. What I can do for you as well is give you the link for a free download of the book, so your listeners can get a free download — I'll send that to you and make sure you've got it.

Michelle Pascoe: Goodness me, that's very generous.

Cassie Davison: It's an absolute pleasure. To find me, I have a website, KithandKin.co.uk, or even easier, CassieDavison.co.uk, and that has everything I do on there, the links to the book, the links to my speaking, and all the other things I do, plus my general ramblings on how wonderful this industry is and how important it is, particularly that independent sector. In the book I talk about the five pillars of hospitality, and the purpose of that is that it's a very complicated business, or at least it can be, and it's very noisy, we have lots of advice coming from every angle. So what I write about in the book is five pillars — basically, how do you make this simple, how do we make it just the five things we're going to think about in the business that actually make the biggest difference. That starts with high standards, which sounds obvious, but we're a bunch of perfectionists — this isn't about being perfect, it's about having pride in everything you do. High standards is about being proud of what we do, and that's for you, but also for your team, because that's what helps engage them as well. Then stand out — with a noisy business, if you know who your customers are, you can make sure you're unforgettable to those customers, rather than trying to please everybody. Being liked is not enough, we need to be loved.

Michelle Pascoe: Yes, yes.

Cassie Davison: And to be loved, you need to know exactly who loves you, not who thinks it's alright — you need to know who loves you. Then define your identity, that's about purpose — if you know your purpose, and why it matters to you, but also why it matters to your customers, then every decision you make in the business is based on those values. Then you move on to build belonging — again, designing absolutely everything, your menus, your pricing, your decor, your music, the volume of the music, who you employ in your team, how your team behave, what they say to people, all of that, every single decision in your entire business is now tailored entirely to your purpose and why you matter to your customers. So suddenly it simplifies every single decision, you don't need to listen to everybody, you can just go, okay, I know what the answer is. And then the final one is telling your story — knowing that in any case, we all buy with emotion and justify with logic, and how we emotionally connect with each other is through storytelling. In this industry, we are full of stories, we know why we do what we do, we know why we matter to our customers, all of our team have stories to share, all of our customers have stories to share, and fundamentally what we're building, whether it's a festival, a restaurant, a cafe, even a small hotel, we're basically a canvas for other people's lives. That means we've got stories, and that's what people connect to — they're not connecting to the picture of that lovely cocktail or the lovely burger, they can get that from anywhere, what they're connecting to is why does it matter, and that's storytelling. So that's all in my book.

Michelle Pascoe: Thank you so much, Cassie, that's very kind of you, and it is true — we are the social fabric, and it's all about storytelling and sharing, no matter who they are, where they're from, or what they do, it's bringing people together and just sharing that space, whether they want to be by themselves or talking with friends, or just being there. It's been wonderful to have you on my podcast, I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, and as I said, listeners, all Cassie's information and links will be in the show notes, her very kind and generous offer of being able to download her book, please take note of that. Thank you, Cassie, I look forward to a conversation in the future.

Cassie Davison: Lovely, thank you so much, it's been an absolute pleasure.

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