TRANSCRIPT: How Can Women Build Confidence to Lead in Hospitality?
The Michelle Pascoe Hospitality Podcast
---
Michelle Pascoe:Â Welcome everyone to today's podcast, and I am so looking forward to having this conversation with this remarkable young lady, who is in regional New South Wales at one of our clubs there, out in Quirindi.
Why I'm bringing this conversation to you today, my listeners, is that the registered club industry here in Australia is phenomenal, and as you know, I've been part of it now for over three decades, and no matter the gender, we have amazing people in it. However, I see time and time again where a person who could well fit a role holds themselves back because of a variety of reasons. We don't have enough females, and even though this is not going to be a quota session, it's about giving that confidence and that belief in ourselves as being a female, and having our male supporters in the industry to push us. Because at times, when we look at research, it always says a female, before they go for a job, if there's ten boxes, she has to tick all ten of those boxes, where a male will go, "well, I've got two or three of those and I'll learn on the way." We hold ourselves back — that is something about women. And of course, I don't want to stereotype people, but I really want to bring this conversation with Phillipa to you today, to hear about her journey in this industry, and also being part of a regional community.
So let me introduce you to our Secretary Manager of Club Quirindi, Phillipa Fuller. She is a dedicated club industry professional and a proud single mum to a gorgeous daughter who just turned thirteen months old, who we've also got in the background. She has built a reputation for leading high-performing teams, driving business growth and building strong community connections, balancing the demands of executive leadership with the realities of single parenthood. She brings a practical, authentic perspective on leadership, resilience and the success of a female leader in a club in a regional area of New South Wales.
It's not — sometimes we look at it, don't we, Phillipa — as though you've got to have it either or. Either it's being a parent or a carer of a child, or having a career. You can do both, but it's also realising your own energy levels. I think that's probably the biggest thing.
Phillipa Fuller: Absolutely.
Michelle Pascoe: So let me start with our first question, and welcome, Phillipa. Looking back at your amazing career — what I want to hear about is what are the biggest lessons the club industry has taught you about leadership and people? So maybe that first question could be: how did you get into this wonderful industry, and what has it taught you as you've gone along this journey to where you are now, as the Secretary Manager?
Phillipa Fuller: Well, to answer the first part, I kind of fell into the industry, as I suppose many people do — not really thinking of clubs as a career. I certainly didn't, straight out of uni. I struggled actually — I did really well at uni, but I struggled to get a job. I had plenty of interviews, but my confidence in these big interviews, say with PWC in Newcastle — I got good interviews, but I just struggled with my confidence coming out of uni, and that imposter syndrome almost, like, "do I belong here?" You sit there with six other people in the waiting room at these big interviews and think, "oh, they look better than me."
Michelle Pascoe: Yeah, and it happens — it happens to us all.
Phillipa Fuller: So I actually ended up — I started off in a pub up at Tea Gardens on the coast and got a bit of experience there. Started right at the bottom, waitress in the bistro, right in the height of summer there — anyone who's been to Tea Gardens knows you wait an hour to order your food in line, and then you wait another two hours to get it. Wonderful. So, very high pressure. Moved my way up into the bar, and then learnt — they had twelve poker machines — learnt a bit of the gaming, TAB, Keno, in the bar there. And then they had a change of hands there, and it wasn't quite a good fit anymore. I wasn't happy, so I moved to the Doylo on the Central Coast, and I was there for eighteen months. Again, worked my way through — I ended up doing raffles and bingo and stuff, so a little bit further along there. Then I went to Club Wyong, where I really found my feet. There was a CEO there when I was first hired, and the HR manager that hired me — but then they both left, and a new CEO came in, and she truly believed in me, and I went from strength to strength there. I went through an amalgamation with Mounties Group — again, asked to move up, got told no, which was actually really disheartening. I actually left clubs for about seven months — I was out at the Hunter Valley, in a very busy cocktail bar and restaurant, doing six hundred covers a day. I was the assistant manager — it was incredible, really good experience — but I missed the clubs, so I came back in and was a Duty Manager out at Muswellbrook Workers Club. The CEO there was only recently new as well, had come from pubs, didn't know how the beast of a club works. And I basically went, "if he is the CEO of this club, and doesn't know what I know, what am I doing? Why aren't I applying for those jobs?" So, like you said, there's always something that sort of switches, and you go, "well, I can do that." So then I applied for a General Manager role down in Bombala, down south, near the Victorian border, and I was there — it was a really good stepping-stone club. From there I looked to move — it wasn't quite a good fit by the end of it with the board, and unfortunately it does come down to the boards for GMs. I moved on, and I found Quirindi, and it's amazing. I absolutely love my job — I've loved my job my whole career, but I really love what I do. I have a really supportive board, really supportive staff, the community is great, and what we can do for the community is great. I think clubs really suit me and my mentality, in the fact that I was brought up — you volunteer and you do stuff for the community. I was involved with Rotary, my dad used to do driving for the elderly and that sort of stuff, volunteer work — we've always done that. But then to make a career out of that in a club, it's somehow just the perfect fit.
Michelle Pascoe: So can you give us a timeline from when you first started in the industry?
Phillipa Fuller: I was out of uni, I was twenty, and I'm now thirty-three and a half, so it's thirteen years.
Michelle Pascoe: So we're looking over the last thirteen years — and how long have you been at Club Quirindi for?
Phillipa Fuller: Eighteen months, just over eighteen months.
Michelle Pascoe: So, from what you've shared with us in that overall picture, sometimes it is that — whether it's HR, whether it's another senior manager — they don't always see that potential in people. But I've always said, through all my programs, that a key part of being a leader is seeing that potential that sometimes they don't always see in themselves. And it's not just the clubs you've mentioned — you look at a lot of clubs where sometimes you think that person's just not fitting into that role, and sometimes they have the ability to look at whether there are other areas in that club, or that person just isn't fitting in, and then they will move on, as you have yourself. It is a big beast, but it's having somebody, as you have through that journey, who has actually seen that in you and gone, "just go for it." And it sounds like to me, at that start, it was that confidence — or that lack of confidence and self-belief, and rightly so, that imposter syndrome that many people, if not all people, go through at some point in their lives — from PWC to where you are now, walking confidently, going from a Duty Manager down at Club Bombala and now at Quirindi. But also that point about the board — the board are a very strong connection, they're very important in our club industry, but you have to have that relationship, that great relationship of trust between the manager and the board, don't you? And it sounds like exactly what you've got there.
Phillipa Fuller: Yes, yes, which is fantastic.
Michelle Pascoe: So thinking about that journey over those thirteen and a half years, who backed you along the way? Were there mentors, were there any sponsors or bosses, or perhaps even family members, who saw that potential before that title actually came up?
Phillipa Fuller: Yeah, so I have an extremely supportive and close family. I did lose my dad when I was still at uni, so it's my mum and a couple of sisters, and aunties and uncles and stuff, but they've always been really supportive of me and my ambition, and I think that's been a big thing. Very strong women in my family, on both sides, so that's been a huge part of it. In terms of mentors — when I said I was part of Rotary, I actually had a mentor through high school. I got a scholarship in my last two years of high school, which gave me a mentor, and I think even from then — I was very much, "I'm going to go to Newcastle Uni, and I'm going to do this, and I'm going to do that," and she said, "why?" And I thought, well, it's close to my family, and this and that, and she goes, "but why — have you looked at anything else?" And I went, "no." So I think from a very early stage in my life I had a mentor. Moving into my career, it was at Club Wyong I met Angela Sanders, and she is, to this day — we're actually really good friends, but she's still a mentor to me — and I think her belief in me, and she was the one who saw my potential and believed in me, and got behind me and really supported me to this day. I could still call her up and say, "I've got this problem," and she'd help. She's not in clubs anymore at the moment, but she's had an extensive career in clubs, and all the issues that I've faced, she's gone through first, and I think that's important to realise. When you walk into these conferences and these meetings, and zone meetings, it's — I'm going to say it — old, white men in the room, and that's what it is. The very first one I walked into, that she took me to, it was very confronting — very confronting. Even to this day, I think the Far South Coast zone was absolutely wonderful — although it was still very male-dominated, they were bringing along the Operations Manager, the HR Manager, so there was still that female presence in the room, and it wasn't so heavy. But all those managers down there were really supportive as well, and I could call them up and say, "I've got this problem, can you help me?" And they would. Now, up in the New England area, again going to those meetings — if you're going to go down a career path in clubs, I highly recommend joining the CMA and going to those zone meetings. That networking is so important, it's so important to know that you're not alone, that you're not the only one with problems in your club and in your business, and it's so nice to connect and have those conversations. So I think realising that early on — getting involved with the CMA, that support network — has definitely helped me grow in my position as well.
Michelle Pascoe: Yeah, and it is really important to be part of a network — something like that with the CMA — because it gets you in a room of people who yes, have done it before, but also people like yourself who are going, "am I the only one sitting here?" And it's both parties sharing that information. I've said this multiple times in various episodes, that we are going to see a major change over the next five or so years, with those stalwarts of our registered club community who've been with us for decades and decades, who well deserve retirement and enjoying — to sit back and relax in life as a reward for all the hard work they've done — is that it's what's going to happen to that next group, that doesn't have that group. So building, like through the CMA — I know I do the same thing with my Middle Management Movement program — I've got over, I think it's about two hundred and eighty now, that have done the program. We've got a community in that, so they can share — they may not need it now, but in the future — and that's the same as the CMA, or going to an RSL or a Leagues Club conference. It's making those connections, but it doesn't have to be connected to everybody, does it? It's like with you and Angela — it's just that deep connection, and that's what makes the difference.
You talked about your family's commitment to the community, and so when a lot of people look at clubs, they just see the shiny lights or the bar — they don't really understand, until finally we're starting to beat our own drum and going, "this is what we actually do, what actually needs doing." What do you feel needs to shift for more people to realise what we actually offer, and what is that connection with our community — if you can give us an idea of that, particularly up in Quirindi? And give my listeners an idea of where Quirindi is, what the population is — that would be ideal.
Phillipa Fuller: So Quirindi is in the New England area of New South Wales — about forty-five minutes south of Tamworth, the country music capital, and probably two and a half to three hours' drive from Newcastle. It's a population of around three and a half thousand people. Quirindi itself sits in the Liverpool Plains Shire, which has around nine thousand residents, and it's a real agricultural area — Liverpool Plains has really rich soil for agriculture, so a lot of farming, and it's still quite rural. Although we're forty-five minutes from Tamworth, it's still quite — I'd say somewhat isolated. It's somewhat lucky in that it sits on a train line, but they're very sparse.
Michelle Pascoe: Yeah, I was going to say, I think it's an ad hoc railway.
Phillipa Fuller: Yeah, I know it's there, but it's — once a day, kind of thing. But yeah, so it's — I think, like a lot of communities, an ageing community. I do have to say, since offering a lot more family and young-family-orientated activities at the club, I have seen a lot more young families as well.
Michelle Pascoe: That's great.
Phillipa Fuller: It is — although there's the older community, there's that younger generation too. Also having my own daughter, you sort of see that more often, how many people are walking down the street with prams. So there are a lot of young families in the area as well, and I think that sort of encompasses what the club does — it's end to end. From very — I have fun memories of when my family used to go down to the Friday night raffles at our local club at Dora Creek — to looking after the elderly, and it's intergenerational, what the club does, and what we stand for, and what we're here for, and bringing all of that together. So it's a big thing.
Michelle Pascoe: It is, it is — and this is what our clubs look like. The modern-day club has got to have this offering. As you said, you've got an ageing population, but you've also realised now, particularly now that you're a relatively new mum, "oh, now I'm noticing all these prams — how does a pram get into a club?" Hello, cheeky — for those on YouTube, you can see this cheeky little girl. Hello there — at least we've got a big happy smile. It's understanding that our venues need to be open to all generations, and a diversity of people who come into our venues, particularly in country areas as well.
Let's look at this focus of being that female senior leader — the CEO, the Secretary Manager, the General Manager in the club industry. As we said, there are few and far between. There are many on the front line who are women — for some, they choose not to continue, because perhaps it's just a job while they're going into another profession. It could be, these are things I've heard over the years — "oh, my partner prefers me," "it's starting a family," "why do you need to work at night-time, why do you need to take on all the responsibility of a leader — just be, not just be, but work what you've got, it's good enough money, you don't have to do it anymore." Or that feeling, where the leadership team aren't seeing you, or you're not putting yourself up there — so they'll get to that 2IC level, or HR, or marketing, but it's stepping up into that senior role. And the women that we do have, like yourself, Phillipa, are really those role models for everyone to see across the whole gaming and hospitality industry, that it can be done. So why do you think there are fewer women at this stage, and perhaps why are you starting to see a few younger ones, like yourself, coming through — what actually needs to shift for more women to see themselves in these roles, what do you think?
Phillipa Fuller: Well, I think we're seeing a shift in the board as well — I think that plays a big part of it, in that younger boards coming through can see, and may not be as prejudicial to females in the position. And then, I think, also just the belief — the belief that you can do it, and you can juggle it, and there is a support network out there. Like I said, in that club I was in, where the CEO — I most definitely knew more than him, and he was in the top job. Those sorts of things just — just go for it. It might mean going regionally for twelve months, or fifteen, or eighteen months, as a stepping-stone club, to get back to somewhere closer to a central place where you want to be. But also, there's nothing wrong with those regional clubs — they're absolutely lovely, the communities are great, and you might just get out of the big city and get that top job. They're out there, they're screaming — as you said, there's a whole generation that are most deservingly going to start retiring, and there's going to be a huge gap. I think, particularly coming from — having had that experience in coastal clubs with big clubs around — don't underestimate your knowledge. We have to tick all the boxes, and they don't, and that's where this network of people can help you. It's not a "fake it till you make it," it's realising what you do know, and taking strength in that, and also taking strength in realising what you don't know, and asking for help. I think that's very important to pass on to anyone who's thinking about it — just because you don't know something doesn't mean you can't do it.
Michelle Pascoe: Yeah, oh, that is so true, Phillipa, and asking for help is not a sign of weakness.
Phillipa Fuller: No, absolutely not. It's amazing — even walking into those CMA meetings and the zone meetings, I've gone to a couple now in the last eighteen months, and the first couple you sort of sit there and don't say anything, just work out what's going on. But the last one, I put my hand up, and I had really good discussion and good questions, and I had some of those managers who are about to retire go, "oh, that was a really good question, really good answer, and thank you for speaking up." So that's really great to know — that we don't know everything, we can't know everything, but the continuous learning, and the realisation that it's not a weakness not to know, but you can do it.
Michelle Pascoe: Yeah, and it's staying curious — asking these questions. If we all thought we knew everything, we would just stop, and it just becomes stagnant, and sometimes you do see that in some people, across many industries, where they think they know everything and they stop listening, and it's when they stop listening that the customers start walking out the door, but usually it's the team that starts leaving as well, because of that whole change in the actual culture of the organisation.
I think you made a really good point there, about sometimes people go out to a regional area to use it as a stepping stone to come back into the big city clubs — but oh my goodness, there are some amazing regional clubs. Over the last few years, because I love driving — give me time to drive — I'm happy to get in that car, drive five hours and have a coffee, because it's getting away from the M5 and every other crazy road system in Sydney. But I've always been prepared to do that, because I grew up on a farm — I've had that honour and privilege to work with clubs down at Mildura and Euston, and even down at Phillip Island in Victoria, and other regional areas — Dubbo, and Taree, and Mudgee — and I think these are beautiful places, where the community is so strong. Why would you ever want to leave? Even Gunnedah, and places like that — you've got to be part of that community. And as we know, clubs are the absolute hub in emergencies, but also that connection — I always say to young people, when I'm training them, that at a club you can have a person come in, they can wait at that door, they can sit at that same table, and have one glass of water, and be there all day until the doors shut, and they'll never be told to move on. They'll have a lot of conversations, because the staff will have a chat, and I think even more so in community — but that's what clubs are there for, aren't they?
Phillipa Fuller: Absolutely, it's so important.
Michelle Pascoe: You've got your gorgeous thirteen-month-old there bouncing on your knee, agreeing to everything her mum says. I loved how you said before, you've got strong female genes and mentors in your own family, but you're also showing that to your child — being a role model as a single mum, balancing family life with leading a major community organisation. What advice would you give to other women looking to build a successful career in hospitality, in clubs?
Phillipa Fuller: You can do it, and believe in yourself. It's surprising, the network that you do have — if you're a Duty Manager, you're eligible to join the CMA at Duty Manager level, highly recommend doing that. You can do it, you can do it, you can do it.
Michelle Pascoe: So, I suppose some of my listeners will be going, "okay, so there you are — do you have family support that looks after your little one? When you go to work, is it childcare?" Does the club look at — you know, there'd be other females there, or even dads that may have the full care responsibility — it's not just the mums, it could be an older sibling or a younger sibling that's looking after their family members too. Being now a single mum, do you see that as being flexible in your roster? I know there are multiple questions there — has it identified areas that you never even thought of before, because it just didn't impact you?
Phillipa Fuller: I think, coming through clubs for quite some time, and having to do rosters for quite a fair while — I've been doing rosters since I was at Club Wyong — and understanding people have families, and at the end of the day, family is so important, and it is the most important thing, that you do try and make it work at the end of the day. Yes, it's a business, and you've got to make the business work, but people have families, and the club will keep ticking over — that's the other thing to realise, that you just make it work as well.
Michelle Pascoe: Yes, we do. Do you think that's where it's really important to communicate what's happening in your life?
Phillipa Fuller: Absolutely. I think sometimes staff may leave a job, no matter what role they're in, because they haven't told HR or the Secretary Manager about what's happening — childcare arrangements may have changed, or whatever situations are in your life — people can't read your mind. So it's communicating what's happening in your life. Now, can you do more shifts, would you prefer to work at night because your partner is home at night, and all those sorts of things — but it's also delegation, I think that is key.
Michelle Pascoe: Absolutely, and boundaries — you've got to set boundaries at work and in your home life. So what are your thoughts about that delegation piece, because you can take a lot on?
Phillipa Fuller: Absolutely, and that's a hard lesson to learn — I think it's something that is a hard lesson, because you will get burnt out, and I have been there, thankfully prior to having my daughter, but you just take on everything, and you feel like you have to do everything. But you have to bounce off your team, bounce off your network, be open with the board about what's going on. I had one unfortunate case where that got thrown back in my face — but that's when you move on, and you realise that's not the place for me, and you do move on. I think delegating — I don't know if you can learn it any other way than the hard way.
Michelle Pascoe: Yeah.
Phillipa Fuller: My personal experience, I definitely — I think I'm fairly switched-on and understand, but you don't realise until it's too late, I think, and you realise, "no, I need to help, I need to delegate, and I need to put those boundaries in."
Michelle Pascoe: So if there's a woman in a regional or city club out there listening to this — or if you're a man in a club, send this out to your team, no matter your gender, let's get this word out there — who right now is ready for that senior role, CEO, Secretary Manager, General Manager, but hasn't put her hand up — what would you say to her?
Phillipa Fuller: Believe in yourself, and get feedback — if you put your hand up and get turned down, ask why, and get that feedback. Don't be afraid — I've been told no multiple times, and it's hard, but believe in yourself, and find someone who's going to believe in you, because they are out there. Having Angela there for me has been the biggest thing, and it just takes one person — just takes one person. So believe in yourself, go find that person — you might already have them — communicate with them what your ambition is, and just get out there and do it.
Michelle Pascoe: Yeah, Phillipa, that is wise words from somebody so young — I just love having this conversation with you. This is an industry that, as I said, I've been around in for more than three decades, and I can tell you now, if I had ever turned up to a meeting with a baby on my knee, you just wouldn't do it. But I have gone to meetings with some beautiful guys who are CEOs, and one of them is now quite a senior CEO of a large empire of clubs, and the very first time I met him, he was fiddling with his tie and said, "I'm terribly sorry, I was feeding the baby, and they burped, and it was all over the tie." And it was at that moment I thought to myself, this is a crucial point in changing — not just in our industry, but in all industries, but particularly ours, because it's a male-dominated industry — that men can be fathers, they can be carers, and they can have these roles, but so can we as women. We can be the carers, we can have these roles, but at times it does — definitely a mentor, and we need men in our corner to support us, in that boardroom and in that CMA meeting, that conference room, to speak up. But you're right, it still comes from ourselves, in believing in ourselves. And sometimes it's our family that can be those naysayers, because they love us, they don't want to see us hurt. So find that person — find that Angela that you have, Phillipa. And once again, thank you so much for sharing your journey, and I really look forward to catching up with you at a conference or somewhere one day, and watching your journey as you progress through your career. Is there something I haven't asked you, that you wanted to share before we finish today?
Phillipa Fuller: I don't think so — I think, like my last comment there, I've been told no a lot, and it's that self-belief, and it's hard at times, and you question yourself at times, but I truly believe the club industry, the community, and let's say the world, is better off if you continue to believe in yourself and get into these positions. Because as soon as you do — and as hard as it may have been for me, or even harder for Angela before me — it gets easier every generation, every time. So I see it as the bigger picture — as much as it's my own ambition, I know me breaking these barriers and sharing my story is making it easier for someone else.
Michelle Pascoe: Yeah, definitely — it's keeping that ladder down there to help those next people up, not just pulling it up from behind you. Thank you so much, Phillipa, for joining us today. And for my listeners, if you're ever out in the New England district, pop into Club Quirindi and catch up with Phillipa and her team. Thank you so much.
Phillipa Fuller: Thank you so much, Michelle.
